To CBet or not to CBet?

It's a connected board in a mwp, so it's likely you will get called by someone. Besides, the other two are BTN and SB and they hit that board quite well. I don't mind playing 55 in a fit or fold manner here. Cbet is ok, you have some hands as well too.
Turn adds pretty much nothing. Despite getting called by the two of them OTF, you could try to represent something here, like some KJ, KQ, even KT with a double barrel, but I prefer to do that in HU pots.
Don't mind the check here, control the size of the pot.
River is meh again. You have some showdown value, so trying to see a showdown for free is nice imo.
A bet OTR could trigger some hidden instincts and you may end up being forced to fold to a raise. They have some bluffs, some missed flushdraws and straight-draws, but I like to play on the safe side here than being forced to guess.
Well, I find curious that none of them, especially BTN, did not bet OTR after 2 checks and the check round OTT.

Thanks zetozinho,
I think that the pre-flop raise here is critical, since it tells them that I have at least *some* kind of hand.

My flop plan was "one-and-done". Had anyone bet Turn or River I was outta there.

Cheers,
VS

Glad to see you in "our" NLH section Vorpal ♠_drink:
Come to the dark side. We have cookies.

Open 3x at micros, high rake high value etc.
I'd give up that spot on the flop. You have virtually no FE here (on one single barrel). It's hard to find hands that have no pair no draws in their ranges. And they are two. At least one of them is gonna call or raise.
Funny showdown though !
Nice value lol.

Originally posted by MyFloXyBabY
Glad to see you in "our" NLH section Vorpal ♠_drink:
Come to the dark side. We have cookies.

Open 3x at micros, high rake high value etc.

3x is my standard, but if everyone at the table is raising 2.5x, then so do I.
Had anyone raised pre, I would not call the 3Bet.
AK, KQ certainly would do that -- esp in BB.
So OTF I figured I could rep a K and get folds.

Wrong again <sniff>

What flavour cookies?

VS

Don't mind what everyone does. Just do what works.
You can sometimes call 3bet IP with low PP it's not (always) a mistake as long as stacks are decents and players not too good.
OTF you indeed rep a Kx as it's hard to bet for value with much lower. They're gonna call at least once with pretty much any Kx, Tx, probably 7x, draws, and GS such as AQ-AJ. So you see how much that flop is disastrous for 55.
The plan to bet once and then give up is really no use, and to bluff on multiple streets you have better hands to choose from (semi-bluffs with much more equity and more blocking effect).

Well, i wouldnt mind the double barrelling if it was only a villain.

Btw, do you guys think a delayed cbet would work? I mean check otf and, if everyone checks to me ott, raise.

Btw i like that you raised pre and the check OTR is well played aswell

Originally posted by MyFloXyBabY
Open 3x at micros, high rake high value etc.

I've been digging about this and found an article where it says Doug Polk opens 2x from the BTN, 3x from the SB and 2.5x from any other positions because of the rake at micros.
The thesis is that pots will be smaller postflop, thus paying less rake.
I don't know if I'm allowed to do that, but if I am I'll post the link of the page here.

What I think you're trying to defend is that by opening 3x (2.5x on the BTN) from every position will decrease the chances of getting called and thus you win more pots pre-flop, where rake is not considered.

I've been searching in my database and found that I've paid 8bb/100 of rake at NL2. That's insane.

Originally posted by zetozinho

Originally posted by MyFloXyBabY
Open 3x at micros, high rake high value etc.

I've been searching in my database and found that I've paid 8bb/100 of rake at NL2. That's insane.

Damnnnn thats sick!
I was told that when we shove, if the bet size is bigger than the villain's stack the rake will be acordingly to the bet we made.

On another note, the other day i saw coach Lemon raising 2bb from BTN

There was a thing a while back where the open raise size was reduced OTB to make it less costly to play IP in 3Bet pots.

In this case my decision had nothing to do with rake, pot size or any of that. I did it to blend in. If everyone is raising 3x and one player opens 2.5, it polarizes his range -- he either wants a cheap flop, or wants to induce a raise. Similarly if everyone is opening 2.5 and one player opens 3x.

When I first started, the general rule was to open 4x to deny BB pot odds to call very wide.
This silently disappeared around 2011 or so.

Thanks for all the comments!
I've been playing much more NLHE lately -- partly because of the 888 bankroll rebuld.

All the best,
VS

Originally posted by zetozinho

Originally posted by MyFloXyBabY
Open 3x at micros, high rake high value etc.

I've been digging about this and found an article where it says Doug Polk opens 2x from the BTN, 3x from the SB and 2.5x from any other positions because of the rake at micros.
The thesis is that pots will be smaller postflop, thus paying less rake.
I don't know if I'm allowed to do that, but if I am I'll post the link of the page here.

Wow wow wow I'm really surprised, it's the first time I've heard of Doub Polk being so wrong. Because it's just good old plain wrong. Ask anyone. The rake formula makes it so that the smaller the pots the more your edge is eaten by the rake. That's why it's no use limping from SB below NL400 for example.
The sophism of that reasoning is like saying you prefer to earn less money in your job because like that you're gonna pay less taxes. Yes you're gonna pay less taxes, because you're gonna earn less money. You'd prefer having a raise even if that means a little more taxes !
And note that this taxes sophism also works for variance. There is relative and absolute variance. People often say they want to avoid variance but it can be misleading. There is more (absolute) variance in going broke pre with AA than in playing QTs in a SRP. I don't like variance but I take the going broke with AA thing every day please. It makes much more money.

Anyway people pay when we make it 3x. And they don't 3bet enough to annoy us or anything. So keep going for 3x at least at micros. You'll just earn more. And note that even at midstakes there are smart people still doing it. At midstakes it's way more a question of style without anybody able to tell if something is really better than something else though of course but just to say.

Originally posted by zetozinho
What I think you're trying to defend is that by opening 3x (2.5x on the BTN) from every position will decrease the chances of getting called and thus you win more pots pre-flop, where rake is not considered.

Not at all. I don't aim for that neither think it could happen on the contrary. The only place where I oversteal and expect part of my profit to come from the fact that the field is overfolding is from BU where I don't need to open 3x !

Originally posted by zetozinho
I've been searching in my database and found that I've paid 8bb/100 of rake at NL2. That's insane.

That's weird. I mean that's most certainly wrong. A friend of mine paid something like 16 bb/100 of rake at NL25 and it's supposed to be less at 25 than at 2 of course.
And we pay more rake on the .eu than the .com. It could vary at every stake but I've heard that for NL100 it was 3 bb more. That's more or less the winrate of most NL100 players so fortunately we play worse people to compensate ♦

Originally posted by MyFloXyBabY
That's weird. I mean that's most certainly wrong. A friend of mine paid something like 16 bb/100 of rake at NL25 and it's supposed to be less at 25 than at 2 of course.
And we pay more rake on the .eu than the .com. It could vary at every stake but I've heard that for NL100 it was 3 bb more. That's more or less the winrate of most NL100 players so fortunately we play worse people to compensate ♦

The rake at NL25 at the .eu is about the same as NL2 (at ZOOM). Regular tables NL2 rake is way bigger than NL25.
The 8bb/100 is about ZOOM rings only, should've said that ♦

Reg. tables:
The max rake they take in a NL2 pot is 1.5€. At NL25 is 2.5€ (Portugal).

Zoom tables:
The max rake they take at NL2 pots is 0.25€. At NL25 is 2.85€ (Portugal).

For NL50+ games, the max rake is 3€, no matter the stake (it goes up NL1000 on zoom here, but there are no players ♦)
So basically, before you reach NL50 you're being eaten by rake.
However, when you reach NL50 your winrate as dropped like 4x in comparison to your NL2 winrate (I don't know, but 4-5bb at NL50 is pretty good right?) ♦

I asked a friend that still have a NL2 sample on his tracker it seems more around the 12/14 bb/100 rake for regular tables. I'm surprised it's not even more frankly lol but clearly I don't really know.

4-5 bb at NL50 is nice indeed, you must know how to play a little.

Interesting discussion here. I wanted to comment on that Doug Polk thing.
When we watch content from these top guys like Polk we must keep in mind that they most of the time do not play microstakes online poker. One mistake beginners could make is they try to apply things that are not suitable for their games.

Those top players could suggest opening 2x from BTN every single time, but I would tell you to open your premium hands 3x. The reason is that players really don't adapt. When it comes to villains' defending frequency, it makes very little difference if you open to 2x or 3x. But that information you won't get from someone who doesn't play your limits or aim the content to players at your limit.

That's absolutely right la55i.
I do that with my premium hands IP and players just don't adapt (on zoom, well they adapt even less). This subject follows an issue I was talking with Floxy in another post, if I'm not mistaken, which is the FPS at the micros and the overthinking of certain spots that should be easy.

Originally posted by MyFloXyBabY
4-5 bb at NL50 is nice indeed, you must know how to play a little.

Loved that part of the little

I have a friend that likes to say that pro players have wrong assumptions about microstakes a little like politics have wrong ideas about every day life and don't know anymore the real price of bread or milk etc.
Usually Doug Polk does better than that though but he can disappoint too lately tss.

Of course the "little" part was meant to be ironic. I wouldn't do better than that winrate. I guess. Depends on the field and all.
But do I know how to play a little though ?

Also I don't encourage playing FPS while grinding even at micros. If that was what you meant.
I seriously know a guy that plays console while grinding. But he plays like a nit on FR tables though. Takes off all the coolness of the performance.

I'm starting to feel bad fellows. It appears there are some Polk fans here and I've just ruined it

I'm going to start writing like Floxy. When he does this he looks like a real poet.

About FR games... there are not available in PT and I'm glad about it. Hate it.
When money goes up it's all about details, because everyone knows how this is meant to be played.

You might be surprised (or not) to learn that actually I took that writing small wit habit on a litterature forum, and there I've been followed by several people too
I guess I'm the fashionable guy.

I'm not surprised there aren't enough people in whole Portugal to complete a FR table ♦
But I still wonder what you meant by "FPS" earlier though.

Originally posted by MyFloXyBabY
I'm not surprised there aren't enough people in whole Portugal to complete a FR table ♦
But I still wonder what you meant by "FPS" earlier though.

Working too hard and think that my opponents have decent knowledge about ranges, equity, pot odds etc.
Basically, playing against a NL2 player like if I was at NL100.
Nice joke Floxy, but believe me the pool here is really small. I've told you that I have players in my database with 10, 15k hands at NL2.

You know the pool is small when u feel happy for having 50 guys playing nl10