A8o bluff on the river

The 4th card of a suit is quite often a good place to bluff.
It is also a good place to bluff-catch if you are OOP and have the flush (or straight flush as on this board)
The fact that villain is check/calling with the x/r stab OTF suggests that he has draws of some kind.

OTT does the check show he's giving up -- or slowplaying?

Cheers,
VS

Not holdem cash player opinion:

Hand strength wise bluff is fine as I doubt you have much if any showdown value. In these sort of spot I often just use bottom of my range hands as bluffs as there is no clear "good to have blocker". This is likely at bottom of your range on river. Then question comes what value hands you are repping. Seems to me those are likely mainly slowplayed flushes on turn which seems fine as we have less than SPR 1. You probably wont have Axo with Ac most of time considering preflop r-c and flop b-c. Some QQ, JJ or AA with club probably possible when not 4betting preflop. Though I suppose shoving J high flush could be thin.

Of course value combos are pretty few so from that view we should not be bluffing much but this is probably fine?

Hi, Your call PRF is super bad! We should X OTF, as played we should call the raise! X OTT is correct! Well OTR you don't really have to turn you SDV into bluff without any EV difference increasing the variance and improving your red line with the cost of your blue line! So we should simply Check!

Originally posted by vengeance77
Hi, Your call PRF is super bad! We should X OTF, as played we should call the raise! X OTT is correct! Well OTR you don't really have to turn you SDV into bluff without any EV difference increasing the variance and improving your red line with the cost of your blue line! So we should simply Check!

What do you mean call is super bad preflop? It is call according to GTO charts. What do you think I should do? His range on the flop should be mainly overcards, so I bad for protection against them. What showdown I have on the river, what hands do I beat?

Originally posted by kfcsekirata
What do you mean call is super bad preflop? It is call according to GTO charts. What do you think I should do? His range on the flop should be mainly overcards, so I bad for protection against them. What showdown I have on the river, what hands do I beat?

Which GTO charts did you consult?
This image is from an older article, but doesn't include A8s -- even the MP RFI range doesn't include A8s -- although I routinely open suited aces from MP and I'm a nit, so that doesn't say much for my opinion

If you have Equilab you will see that the MP RFI "Loose" range is 22+, ATs+, KJs+, QJs, JTs, T9s, 98s, 87s, 76s, 65s, ATo+, KJo+

I recognize that these ranges are several years old, and exceptionally tight.

Gto charts from Kanu7 course, which I think are from Monker solver.

Originally posted by kfcsekirata
Gto charts from Kanu7 course, which I think are from Monker solver.

Thanks, I'll look those up...

In general opening A6-8s from MP a bit lose and even so it will be close to BE!
Whatever range you are opening 3x from MP defending A8s vs SB 12BB 3b is huge over defend coming with huge -EV even as 4bting, of course the call has the lowest EV of the 3! You can simply take your range and calculate how much is optimal to defend and I cannot imagine range, that will include A8s!;)
Giving you an example vs solid 3b range sb/mp!

http://www.pokerstrategy.com
Equity Win Tie
MP3 31.96% 30.56% 1.39% { A8s }
SB 68.04% 66.65% 1.39% { 88+, ATs+, KQs, AQo+ }

See how bad is A8s! And if he is a bit more thigh like he mentioned You are getting Rekt even more:)
Men I gave you already more for free, than you get with money!♦ Be grateful!

Fold preflop or 4bet.. What is your opening range from MP?
Before than A8s there are many combo.

As played can be ok, prolly it's speawy ♦

I don't think it's a call pre.
Or post flop. But as played...

I think he reps quite polarised. I don't see why he would x/r anything other then an overpair Or either a NUT FD or back Backdoor FD.
I suppose he could have some 78 910s hands. 910s may take this line, which you could shove him off.
But I think he could play QQc JJc like this and look you up on the river.
Also what do you really rep with this line. How do you ever have a nut flush here. What Ac Qc makes it in your range to the river? We don't have aces or QQ in our range, or Ak. Would we really xb a nut flush on the turn then jam the river? Doesn't make sense imo 🤷‍♀️

Originally posted by DecMate
Also what do you really rep with this line. How do you ever have a nut flush here. What Ac Qc makes it in your range to the river? We don't have aces or QQ in our range, or Ak. Would we really xb a nut flush on the turn then jam the river? Doesn't make sense imo 🤷‍♀️

Calling JJ+ preflop some portion of time is fine imo. Turn check with nut flush make lot of sense to me as we need no protection and protect check range. Weaker flushes are more inclined to just shove turn. Being in position make it easy to then shove any river for value with less than SPR 1.

We will look at this hand
as if it were played BUvsSB with wider ranges to make it more fun
Come join us in 30 minutes tonight!
https://forums.pokerstrategy.com/forum/thread.php?threadid=514396
https://www.twitch.tv/pokerstrategydotcom

Originally posted by LemOn36
as if it were played BUvsSB with wider ranges to make it more fun

Interesting sense of humor ♦

Would have been nice to clarify from which positions is A8s a raise/defend from MP through BT, because there was a debate ITT about that (esp. from MP)