Thoughts?

is 87s part of a 3-bet bluff range?
One series of articles I've read uses suited one-gappers like 75s - J9s as 3Bet bluffs, but the suited connectors are flat calls.

I like that you bet the FD OTF
OTT you pick up equity since you now have a gutshot, and I think firing another barrel on the increased equity is good. Even so, it brings another flush to the board -- that you don't block, so you're skating on pretty thin ice.

The river is pretty much a forced shove, but you're losing to any better flush.

I'm really interested in hearing what the real experts think.

Qua line I would most likely play the same, but I would most likely Cbet flop and turn around half pot. Now you are committed on the turn. If villain is a passive player I would just call pre-flop and try to keep the post smaller post-flop. if I would 3bet pre-flop i would most likely slowdown the turn with a little bit of showdown value.

Cheers,
SDK1987

GTO wise I don't think 87s is in the 3 bet bluff range pre.

But that being said I do use it as well some times as a 3 bet bluff just in BTN and CO, I find it a little hard to use in the SB and BB as we are ALWAYS OOP.

as played I am onto other end of ladder from SDK, I rather a small bet on flop 1/3 maybe slightly less as we aren't drawing to a huge nutted hand and villain can be holding Ajs,A10s, A3s-A5s once again dependent one villain. Then on the turn with picking up a gut shot as well I like the sizing it leaves about a half pot for river bet, as are SPR is very low in this hand. I also could like a check-jam on turn as well.

GL
keep grinding

Originally posted by mkBISCUIT
GTO wise I don't think 87s is in the 3 bet bluff range pre.

But that being said I do use it as well some times as a 3 bet bluff just in BTN and CO, I find it a little hard to use in the SB and BB as we are ALWAYS OOP.

as played I am onto other end of ladder from SDK, I rather a small bet on flop 1/3 maybe slightly less as we aren't drawing to a huge nutted hand and villain can be holding Ajs,A10s, A3s-A5s once again dependent one villain. Then on the turn with picking up a gut shot as well I like the sizing it leaves about a half pot for river bet, as are SPR is very low in this hand. I also could like a check-jam on turn as well.

GL
keep grinding

I completely agree with mkBISCUIT. (Except extra turn equity comes from possible 2pair/trips outs and not from GS which is already there OTF):
- Fold pre
- Bet smaller OTF
- I like the turn sizing

x/r OTT is not really in my arsenal, though, maybe I should consider it? But I am not really sure what it accomplishes, other than getting value from a float bet (how many times does this happen?). Even with so many outs (17 if you count them all), it would not be a value raise, IMO. You are still behind vs all top pair type of hands. I'd rather take the pot by leading turn than by x/r'ing.

I think the main thing, a turn x/r accomplishes is that it allows you to build a x/r range at all. With this semi-bluff you can balance your value raises. So if you want to protect your turn checking range OOP in 3bet pots, this is probably a good hand to x/r. I don't think this is necessary on NL2, though.

Looks ok to me 87s would be 100% 3bet in the ranges i use sb vs btn things to look for is the open being 3x but you can drop the bottom of the 3bet range and 87s would still be a 3bet.Postflop looks ok to me although id likely go 1/3p on the flop we just don't want to leave an awkward spot on the turn with the spr.

Standard 3bet range (16.1%, 213 combos)

Borderline hands, only 3bet versus loose players that often fold to 3bet (2.6%, 35 combos)

That looks like flopzilla, what program is it?? Curious. GTOwizard doesn’t come close to using 87s as a 3bet. And I think at NL 2 you could be los g money with the hand.

@ monte
Yes reading good lord, maybe I should try it…. You do have the gut buster on the flop…. As for the c/ r turn, I do like it as you would be c/r with all sets here and 2pr so at least you have a bluff, but once again I don’t play much NL2 - NL 50 any more so I could be from a different world.

Cheers be safe.

Originally posted by RedsYNWA
Looks ok to me 87s would be 100% 3bet in the ranges i use sb vs btn things to look for is the open being 3x but you can drop the bottom of the 3bet range and 87s would still be a 3bet.Postflop looks ok to me although id likely go 1/3p on the flop we just don't want to leave an awkward spot on the turn with the spr.

Standard 3bet range (16.1%, 213 combos)

Borderline hands, only 3bet versus loose players that often fold to 3bet (2.6%, 35 combos)

In all the GTO ranges I have seen (e.g. from GTO Wizard) 87s is 100% fold SB vs. BTN. So if we deviate from it, there must be a good reason for it. This could be that the open raiser folds too much to 3bets, or if the player is unknown, population folds too much to 3bets, or we have huge postflop edge. I can't say if any of these reasons apply, so I would stick to folding preflop.

Using BTS preflop bible ranges what is GTO wizard 3betting sb vs btn id be interested to see as ive never seen those ranges.

Here you go vs a 2.5 x open and this is 500nl complex. At least what o use.

If I did this right… hopefully

I will one day get the images right using a URL... SMH..

Also, W34z3l has it as a mix between call and 3bet. Could very well be that, vs. the population, it is a +EV 3bet. I guess, it is one of those borderline hands.

You can check GTO Wizard's ranges out for free here (just need to create a free account, if logged in the link points to the exact spot: SB vs BTN).

Originally posted by monteCarlol
Also, W34z3l has it as a mix between call and 3bet. Could very well be that, vs. the population, it is a +EV 3bet. I guess, it is one of those borderline hands.

You can check GTO Wizard's ranges out for free here (just need to create a free account, if logged in the link points to the exact spot: SB vs BTN).

GTO wizards ranges vary depending on the NL you input. The ranges I use from pokercoaching.com have SB betting his playable range, 87s is 3-bet as bluff. Im sure it could go either way but I dont think I need to strickly follow gto charts when playing 2nl

Originally posted by RedsYNWA
Looks ok to me 87s would be 100% 3bet in the ranges i use sb vs btn things to look for is the open being 3x but you can drop the bottom of the 3bet range and 87s would still be a 3bet.Postflop looks ok to me although id likely go 1/3p on the flop we just don't want to leave an awkward spot on the turn with the spr.

Standard 3bet range (16.1%, 213 combos)

Borderline hands, only 3bet versus loose players that often fold to 3bet (2.6%, 35 combos)

Thanks for you feedback. I don’t think betting 1/3 pot here is best because I think equities should run close, when we dont have a good range advantage + we are OOP I think we want to bet polarized 50% pot or more with our best made hands and draws,

I agree as I said, playing that limit I be curious to see if it is a winning 3 bet hand, it doesn’t seem to me that it would be.

Originally posted by mkBISCUIT
I agree as I said, playing that limit I be curious to see if it is a winning 3 bet hand, it doesn’t seem to me that it would be.

Doesn’t seem it would be, based on what? From my understanding most players overfold to c-bets at these limits, I can agree its probably a hand that should be folded some frequency aswell. I feel like not enough people at 2nl balance their ranges so when I do somewhat my premium hands may get more value later on because Im not 3-betting only a linear range

people open btn to wide and they defend vs 3bets badly so seems like a +ev spot to me plus it just gives you some board coverage using this combo instead of maybe KTo its a combo that plays well postflop.

Originally posted by Casey55
Thanks for you feedback. I don’t think betting 1/3 pot here is best because I think equities should run close, when we dont have a good range advantage + we are OOP I think we want to bet polarized 50% pot or more with our best made hands and draws,

Maybe but then your getting in to the territory of bet calling off a draw on the turn given the spr and our equity although i wouldn't be to surprised if that line were perfectly ok here.

Originally posted by RedsYNWA

Originally posted by Casey55
Thanks for you feedback. I don’t think betting 1/3 pot here is best because I think equities should run close, when we dont have a good range advantage + we are OOP I think we want to bet polarized 50% pot or more with our best made hands and draws,

Maybe but then your getting in to the territory of bet calling off a draw on the turn given the spr and our equity although i wouldn't be to surprised if that line were perfectly ok here.

What lines do you like here? If you bet 1/3 on flop and get called what would you prefer on the turn?

@casey it based on nothing, I don’t play NL2, it was my opinion, I wasn’t stating a fact. I said CURIOUS… nothing of any kind of facts.

Look it up in your data base and see is 78s 3bet a winning hand that is the only way you will find out.

For me at nl 100 out of about 11k hands that I could 3 bet. I have 3 bet 78s 5 times 4 in nl 100 and 1 in 50nl. And it is a slight loser for me…. but that isn't many hand examples.. where as my 76s is getting crushed by 170.

Originally posted by Casey55

Originally posted by RedsYNWA

Originally posted by Casey55
Thanks for you feedback. I don’t think betting 1/3 pot here is best because I think equities should run close, when we dont have a good range advantage + we are OOP I think we want to bet polarized 50% pot or more with our best made hands and draws,

Maybe but then your getting in to the territory of bet calling off a draw on the turn given the spr and our equity although i wouldn't be to surprised if that line were perfectly ok here.

What lines do you like here? If you bet 1/3 on flop and get called what would you prefer on the turn?

This particular turn 7h i probably check call depending on villains size you could even go for a check shove on the turn.On other turns i like just going for 1/3p again maybe size up a little to 1/2p on the turn and allow for a bit more wiggle room.The river you can then either give up or you have some leverage with a good sized bluff left.Your not targeting Qx to fold on either the flop or turn so smaller sizes will do the job your looking for imo.