QQ overpair on river

Originally posted by yangmartins
Do you see space for a bet here?

Yeah you could, and could even get called by Ax hoping to bluff catch.
On the other hand, how do you handle a shove.

Checking back is lower variance even if you could have been called by worse.

It is good to know why you're checking back. If it is because you're afraid, that's not good, but if it is simply because "no worse would call" that is good.

I don't see the value of worse on the river because what hands do second barrel? A5s, very rarely AK and the rest is OP.
The 4Bet range from MP I don't think is so loose but OOP.
With a payout, I would think that you throw away everything you earn and it pays you what it earns.

Hey ! I'll give you my 25NL player's opinion, not saying it's necessarily the only line to take but in my experience it seemed to work pretty well.

I think the issue is mostly preflop : first i think 3betting bigger is better, as the rake is huge in 10NL you don't really want to play post flop against a Wilde range. Also when you 3bet big vilain should 4bet more and call less, thing that the field doesnt do.

When you get 4bet it depends on the informations you got on vilain, bet I would recommend never to call here, that's the worst option. For several reasons ( 1 ) because when you call you will 100% paye rake ( 2 ) because the average vilain only 4bet QQ+ AK with no bluff so you're just flipping and it would be tough to get value, like if you have OVP you just beat AK, and it won't pay much. Also whatever the flop is you're never really safe and you will always be in a spot where you have to bluff catch.

So really don't play 4bet pot in 10NL, maybe if you're deep AF and get good odds but even there it doesnt print money.

So here, in those positions, with QQ I think folding is better as the basis, really frustrating but you exploit vilain that has a value-heavy 4bet range. Of course you can deviate if vilain 4bet bluff, but even here I prefer jamming, you're not glad to play against combo that has 30% equity against you ( like A5s ) because with the rake you're almost flipping. With jamming you will face the same range as before, but you have fold equity.

As you played it post flop I really can't say much, you see that even with like the safest board you can't even extract value with the best hand your range has.

Hopefully I will help !
GM

@NaikTan really appreciate your insights.

I have a couple doubts, though.
1- what would the size of my 3 bet? Something around 4x villain bet?

2- I am trying to 3bet more, as field in NL10 doesn't really play good against 3bets and yes, they call more often than fold. But because of that, I have a lot of suboptimal hands in my 3bet range. If I increase the size of my 3bet I need to reduce my range, in this trade off do I win or loose EV (more hands, smaller size Vs bigger size, less hands)?

3- considering I will play IP, is there no situation (villain profile) where it is worth to play QQ by calling a 4bet and if so what? Against this specific one, I agree I am flipping against bottom of his range, but is hard to fold QQ PF

Hey ! I’ll try to convince you then 😄

1- You can use a standard 4x IP et 4.5x oop. Like for 2.5bb open you go 10bb IP and 12bb oop. For 3bb open you go 12 IP and 13 oop.

2 - I understand that you have an edge postflop in 3bet pot, but with the rake you have to have an enormous edge to really win money. Thus it’s preferable to steal the money preflop, you can exploit them by 3betting really wild, especially against like CO BU SB. You don’t have to narrow your range because vilain will not exploit you, they will call your 3bet tighter instead of also 4betting you wilder. Then you will play more passively postflop because vilain might have a stronger range, but also a really face up one easy to play against.

3- Considering the rake it’s rarely a good idea to play a 4bet pot, sometimes by slow playing AA it’s worth it. But with QQ not often the case. Of course against a aggro fish that 4bet a lot and 3 barrels bluff it’s +EV.
I know it’s hard to fold QQ, but imagine how much money you win if you avoid preflop set up against KK AA ! Vilain will take noting from you QQ and that wins a lot, even if you might feel like you’re loosing .