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An exhaustive model of post-flop combinatorics

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mhmdigital
Joined: 08.10.2023

Hello all!

I'm not a poker player, rather a neuroscientist, who while nursing a burnout last year became obsessed with combinatorics. (The brain is also a pretty complex entity.) In my journey, I stumbled across poker as a prime real-world example, but couldn't find an exhaustive model of post-flop combinatorics, with which to play around. (If one exists and I just couldn't find it, please do let me know!) So, I enumerated the entire post-flop sample space, evaluated suit symmetry throughout the dataset, and created a reduced look-up-table-based model. From an initial ≈56.2 billion possible combinations, there are actually only 607,300 unique ways a post-flop hand can evolve (and correspondingly the number of statistically unique boards at the river), which can be efficiently simulated for multiple players on a desktop computer.

Now I'm trying assess the utility of such a model by announcing it in various channels, and ChatGPT tells me that this forum is one of the most widely used by poker fans of all kinds. So, I openly ask for any feedback from anyone who has interest in the combinatorial statistics of the game or the simulation thereof (i.e., to approximate equity).

Although this is to me a surprising extent of statistical redundancy, I acknowledge the fact that the ultimate statistical scope of the game (i.e., including decision trees) extends orders of magnitude beyond the combinatorics themselves. Analogically, “I've just discovered that the universe is 100,000-fold smaller than previously thought. But it's still enormous, so it makes no practical difference to our lives.” I also am aware that there are already numerous post-flop tools available, including the Power-Equilab software provided for free on this website, which achieve equivalent results. (Modern algorithms and Monte Carlo simulators are fast enough to accurately approximate probabilities of multi-player situations on the fly).

Therefore, I’m struggling to see any utility of such a model in any context. One contribution it could provide is a pre-calculated statistical analysis of the post-flop game for multiple players, obviating the need for on-demand compute power, but I struggle to see the practical value of even this. I’m anyhow preparing to release the model on GitHub, along with a stand-alone visualisation tool to explore the statistics of any board, but as this is quite a heavy time investment (and I actually have a job), I’d like to hear your thoughts on the matter already in order to settle my internal conflict. What utility, if any, could you see in such a model?

Otherwise, my only analogical counterargument is, “Yes, a 100,000-fold smaller universe makes no practical difference to our lives. But it’s still something we’d want to know,” (says the scientist in me.)

Cheers, and best of luck in your games!
Mike

PS. Please also post any technical questions you may have about the model for me. I'd be happy to (try to) answer them and will post again once it's available to download. But be advised that writing up the description and implementation of the model, as well as organising the data for maximum interpretability, is taking me quite some time. -_-


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6 replies
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SDK1987
Joined: 12.11.2008

Brain is interesting for sure. So many people are depressed and not sure why that's is if you think we life in a rich country.


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nsavov
Joined: 24.09.2010

ChatGPT tells me that this forum is one of the most widely used by poker fans of all kinds

:mdr:

Let me get a crack on it. What you are doing (from what I understood) is pointless because like you said, there is already such softwares - paid and free. BUT!!!
Programs like equilab don't account for the added equity of the folded ranges. Sounds made up? That's because I just made it up. What I mean is that if we have for example a 3-way pot with all players with early-mid position ranges, that would mean some runouts would be more likely than in a scenario where it's heads up BU vs BB.

There is FOR SURE a difference between the likelyhoods of runouts depending on the number of players and their positions and actions taken. The more important question is - how big is it and is it worth all the calculations? A simple example:

Spoiler

SB shoves, we have A2o in the BB. That 2 is a pretty dead card.
UTG shoves, everyone folds to us and we have A2o in the BB. The 2 is not as dead of a card as it is in the first example.
Lets say in both examples the shover has AK. We will have a better equity in the second example than the first. But by how much? And it doesn't really matter in this example but maybe there is some situations where it does matter.

Maybe if there were 15-handed tables, holdem would be a lot like blackjack with the deck count being "hot" or "cold" for your hand

Now, what I would advise you is to dip your programming fingers into games like Omaha, 5 card Omaha, Courchevel, and their Hi/Lo variants. There is pretty much no software for those games! The closest thing was ProPokerTools which was actually pretty good but they closed it down for some reason... I downloaded from their site lists of every 4 and 5 card combination, arranged by how strong the hand is depending on the type of game it is (short handed, full table, short stacked, deep...). If you want them, hit me up


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taavi1337
Joined: 29.05.2009

Professional soccer is actually pretty similar to poker. If you are doing well in poker, you could pretty easily enter any top league in Europe and crush the game.


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Super Moderator
VorpalF2F
Joined: 02.09.2010

Originally posted by taavi1337
Professional soccer is actually pretty similar to poker. If you are doing well in poker, you could pretty easily enter any top league in Europe and crush the game.

well, currently I'm doing well in poker, but I couldn't run the length of the pitch.
Oh wait... 😂


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nsavov
Joined: 24.09.2010

I have to rest after going to the store for beer and snacks but I'm sure I'll be killing it chasing a soccer ball.


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taavi1337
Joined: 29.05.2009

We were playing soccer with children and neighbors kid on a small field with two gates built by town elders, when suddenly, bam!, i hit the ball against a house wall by accident. The neighbor came out, at that point there were three children in his garden.


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