[Closed] Nl100 Qq vs limp/4betshove

if player isn´t tilting then you´re likely behind
It is close. I think both call or fold are fine. If you want to avoid variance fold

It's very rare that i see a player doing this with anything else than KK or AA - even if he has AK you're flipping (and of what i observed most people would rather limp/call Ak than limp/shove), so i think i'd fold, too.

in 1 clever book there is such saying: if u ever 3bet over isor/or squueze with AK or QQ/JJ u have to call a shove.

if u re questioning your call then u should queston your 3bet in first place and know what u want to accomplish by it.

Originally posted by TheLastNail
if u re questioning your call then u should queston your 3bet in first place and know what u want to accomplish by it.

I can't really flat here... 3betting this dude should be fine, but I just didn't expect the limper to shove over the top...

He indeed had AA and I think I might give this line a bit more respect if the player isn't a complete fish.

Originally posted by TheLastNail
in 1 clever book there is such saying: if u ever 3bet over isor/or squueze with AK or QQ/JJ u have to call a shove.

if u re questioning your call then u should queston your 3bet in first place and know what u want to accomplish by it.

I don't agree.
If the opponent was a reg or a more aggro fish i would agree and i'd get it in, but a 27/11 indicates passiveness - if a passive player is willing to raise and commit a 100BB stack in a 10BB pot it's usually because he has close to the nuts, in this case KK+.

He is not thinking about his foldequity or some levelwars going on, he just looks at his cards.

well.. what can i say: if u want to be all the time just gaining marginal ev pf and play boring abc poker just 3bet all the time here ofc.

just this: the fish is not loose enough to overcall here enough with worse, CO can ofc, thats other issue, but if u re just tight your range to him seems very strong, why would u want the fish out with semistrong hands? so your range is here JJ+ and KA or sth? if u 3bet here with sc too or some weird air then 3bet here for value, but i dont think u do this coz otherwise it would be pretty much a nobrainer snapcall with the image to the push, coz even fish get iritated to agro image and u would have nice equity edge then..

but if u dont do this: well then "good job", any semicompetent plr will crush u in the future knowing exactly to put u on specific tight range all the time. What u accomplish with calling QQ here is u keep fish in the play with wider range with a greatly disguised hand for CO also. You then include more value hands in your c/r flop range vs agro CO and also flop donking range. U include overpairs /not just draws, strong made hands on semiwet boards.. hence u balance your c/r esp on dry boards not to just air/nuts like paired boards etc..which is then much harder to play against for regs in the future... and ofc merit here is that if u want to be applying pressure and letting ppl make mistakes u want to be naturally using postflop spots with fish to rep a lot of strentgh with very wide range vs regs so here u would balance too, which is rly crucial.

conclusion: ofc 3betting all the time here with QQ is +ev, but the question is what is most ev and in the longrun. That being said i am not saying flatting here 100% of the time is the best, but assume thats obvious.

Ya, I agree with both, but it is about two different subjects.

bierbaer, you say that a fold is most likely the best decision, and the 3bet pf is fine.

TLN says that you don't always have to 3bet this and can flat here very often to donk a lot and check-raise a lot with a wider range of post-flop hands.

I think that in this particular spot a fold is the best option when you 3bet.

But I am confused, is it better to coldcall so the fish can call with like 100% of his limping range, or is it better to coldcall when you are pretty certain you will be playting HU with the raiser.

Or both,

either way, I learned a bit more.

@TLN
I totally agree with you, a flatcall is definitely an option.
My postings were only refering to the scenario in which you already made the 3bet.

@HannesNL
It basically comes down to how comfortable you are about playing OOP with a fish in the hand.
If you have the according level of skill a call could very well have a higher EV than a 3bet.
But i think it's still a bit close because by calling you're seeing a flop 3way - if there's an A or a K you can't do very much but c/f, and this is happening about 36% [(6/50)*3] of the time (assuming one of them has an A and one of them has a K) .
And there's still the case where the fish hits 2pair plus in which case you have some reverse implied odds.