[Closed] NL100 SH - A4s vs fish, two pair on flop

Hi,

his passiveness, his line, the bad card on river combined with his betting size makes me very strongly tend to fold, although it's close.
The problem is, that villain could hold easily sth. like 65s, 75(s), A5 in this spot.
Thinking about it: A5 is the most probable hand for a fish like him.
Fishes like to play small aces even oop. Then they hit and ofc they play ch/c. Then they spike a OSED on double suited board, which is not so important for them => ch/c. Then they hit the quasi-nuts on river, (for them nuts) and they donk a high amount, because they fear rightly that you check behind.

What did he have?

Best regards,
Anin

6 :heart:5

Hi,

you could have punished him for his 2!! bad calls on flop and turn by simply folding. This way his play would be even more -ev for him than it is until turn.

Best regards,
Anin

you could have punished him for his 2!! bad calls on flop and turn by simply folding

My call on the River is objectively bad, I certainly agree that. However, you can only say he made 2 bad calls on the flop and turn because we know his hand. And we only know his hand because I called on the River.

if I had called and he had shown AQ, it would have been the call (not the fold) that would have been his punishment.

As I wrote in my first thread WITHOUT knowing villain's hand, that you are most propably beat => Fold.
So everytime I fold I "know" villain's hand in my mind saying that it was a good fold and that I punished him for 2 bad calls without getting additional value out of his donk. :-)

I don't think we are really disagreeing. Obviously you can't know for sure that you made a good fold unless villain shows you his cards.

but there are lots of cases (such as this) where instinctively you feel you are beat and you should fold - which is what I think you are saying.

But all I mean is, we can't punish villain simply by folding every River that he donks just because we assume he was drawing and got there. villain isn't being punished for his play in that scenario. He's just being rewarded less than if we pay him off.

Originally posted by Tim64
I don't think we are really disagreeing. Obviously you can't know for sure that you made a good fold unless villain shows you his cards.

but there are lots of cases (such as this) where instinctively you feel you are beat and you should fold - which is what I think you are saying.

But all I mean is, we can't punish villain simply by folding every River that he donks just because we assume he was drawing and got there. villain isn't being punished for his play in that scenario. He's just being rewarded less than if we pay him off.

Ok, just to be sure.
We don't disagree at all.
I always speak of that particular spot with that particular villain.
I never said sth. about folding on any river a villain donks after two ch/c.
But in that spot I simply "know" it that we are beating even if I don't see his cards... And ofc you are right, that we don't know it 100% if villain doesn't untoggle the muck cards button... But that is trivial.
That's all I wanted to say.

You are 150bb deep, I just pot flop and turn. river is a shit spot, but I think u can find a fold due to his passiveness.

Agree with maya, make it bigger on all streets.
Cbet-size is ok, but I certainly don't mind making it $6.50 or even $7.50.
On the turn I'd definitely make it bigger, at least $14.50.

On the river there's not much he could have, two combinations of 65s, 4 of 75s. Also there's A5 in his range, not sure about the number of combinations, but I guess assuming there are 4-6 cominations is safe.
I'd also not rule out 85s completely, let's say there are 1-2 combinations of it.

So all in all we're facing 11-13 valuecombinations which is not a whole lot, but it's hard to imagine he bluffs like this.
A passive player like him is usually not starting to bluff like this with a busted FD, so I think we have a close fold on the river.