Making a living with STT SNGs

Hi Demon, thanks for the input.

This is all part of research I am doing whist I have the free time at the moment. I am at work at this time and have nothing to do Can't play during this time but can surf.

I have been looking for a sense of direction for sometime because I need to make some decisions shortly and hence looking at best options. If I feel that with my current skill set, funds, available time etc are not best suited to a particular game then why would I make the commitment to learn it properly. Seems silly to study your bollocks off and then find out that the pot is not what you had hoped it to be for the effort put in. Much better so be realistic and say if I do X I could potentially achieve X, and then say f me that's not achieving want I need it to do ( I do waffle when 3 words could better sum it up)

If for example very few achieve $20k profit in a year in sat $10 sng's better to know that now, before making a commitment to try.

I have been searching for my best options for a while now and think this thread and others like it give me the opportunity to gain more info. Think I am nearly there and who knows might start my first ever Blog.

Regards

Steve

Originally posted by IvicaIliev77

Originally posted by 177272
Hi mate,

I posted this on another Blog, but would ask you the same question. Maybe I should open a thread about it.

What time you grinding today? I have spent HOURSSSSSSSSSS on SS searching winner players ect, and unless I am missing something is seems to be sooooooooooo hard to make money on sng's. Only the very best do well and as we know there are many 100's of 0000 players playing them.

I would welcome a chat on the subject, unless I am missing something it looks
like a grind of the highest order to make a modest profit from them from it, I know some players who repute to make a living from them and I can't see how from their stats. What do you think ?

Steve

Demonic already gave answer , perhaps I can just add thing or two.

Who did you search for? The problem with 15s is there are tons of regulars and most of them are making life hell (decreasing your ROI) by making fishy reg mistakes. What do I mean by this? Well 4-6 players, raise calling wider than nash , not adjusting to position and your general tendencies. Bubble terrible ICM calls from SB, leaks from BB as well, bvb play r/calling shit like Ax in bubble etc
All this stuff is decreasing possibility for you to profitably play aggressive game and its a war between me and them - me wanting to keep 3 betting nash, them r/calling -ev moves , and we both loose money they just loose more because what else can I say when one of the top regs called me in bubble BVB my 4 bet shove with Q6s!!!

Sharkscope following players and see how they do

Elio Oneiro
Ponchua
Kanabal17
FishOnPatrol
DasisJb
Kymatoz (some numbers here)

All these players play were different styles of poker and yet all are profitable on these limits.
Like Demonic was saying, there is way to make a living here and it obviously takes more time effort and hard work then it did 2-3 years ago but once you choose poker as career there shouldn't be excuses of any sort (in my opinion). Quit while its early or work your ass off to crush them

I will start playing right now otherwise I would type you more players (there is about 15-20 of them that I keep clashing on daily basis) but I have to play as tonight at 8:30pm Partizan is playing Thun at home and I will watch this game. Hoping to grind at least 100 games until then.

By the way, its also very important number of games and tables those guys play. I noticed that Elio Oneiro and Ponchua are very solid winners and they at least 12+ table in my opinion. They have my respect for that. Guys that have positive roi with 6-8 tables is fine but I think thats ez game compared to what those guys do!

Cheers for the reply mate,

I think you might underestimate the amount of research I do I have most of the names you have indicated identified, and would perhaps like to discuss at some point what they really do earn over a month, year consistently, but that might be better for another day.

I have researched STsng's MTsng's , Tourneys and all combinations there within of as many good players I can find. (From $1 to $35) Some I know off and some I bump into on SS and leader boards.

I have done daily, monthly, yearly and lifetime searches on them and compare as many aspects as I can. I can say that I was surprised at how few made a good living, the next batch that made an acceptable living and those that grind and grind and grind and make a poor income. ( Far too much volume to be a recreational player) Or I have just misunderstood my findings. I have also made assumption on rake back.

If it is just that you need to be playing at a certain BUY In level and Volume to get a healthy return that so be it, but at least I will know what is required then.

What's your general thought on potential earnings from Sng's?

Regards and GL on your grind... you know I am watching

Steve

Sorry to chime in here, so stop wasting your time trying to find these things out Use this time to work on your game.

I am goner do exactly this buy adding your blog to my read list. hope you have all the answers I need over there

Originally posted by 177272

Cheers for the reply mate,

I think you might underestimate the amount of research I do I have most of the names you have indicated identified, and would perhaps like to discuss at some point what they really do earn over a month, year consistently, but that might be better for another day.

I have researched STsng's MTsng's , Tourneys and all combinations there within of as many good players I can find. (From $1 to $35) Some I know off and some I bump into on SS and leader boards.

I have done daily, monthly, yearly and lifetime searches on them and compare as many aspects as I can. I can say that I was surprised at how few made a good living, the next batch that made an acceptable living and those that grind and grind and grind and make a poor income. ( Far too much volume to be a recreational player) Or I have just misunderstood my findings. I have also made assumption on rake back.

If it is just that you need to be playing at a certain BUY In level and Volume to get a healthy return that so be it, but at least I will know what is required then.

What's your general thought on potential earnings from Sng's?

Regards and GL on your grind... you know I am watching

Steve

Hey Steve,

I finished 1st session of the day, was playing bad running hot , Demonic watched me play we were joking a lot so my focus was off. About to make a lunch grab a bite and continue in 30-45 minutes...

I am very curious what did you come up with financially. For example Elio Oneiro last year had very strong roi on 7s and on 15s , and he is also the guy that plays decent volume.

When I was telling you about 3k + $ a month, I was doing calculations based on the fact that you play 26 days 150 games a day (6 hours 12 tabling each of these days) have SN rb (34%) and have 3% ROI

Look forward to your observations and calculations

Just to brake it down for you

26 days x 150 games each day = 3900 games
Playing just 15$ buy in where rake is 1.08$
You rake total 4212$ from which SN 100k brings RB of 34% so you get back 1432.08$
Assuming you will have at least 3% roi on average you get following
3900 x 13.92$ x 3% = 1628.64$

Total combined 3060.72$ per month

With 12 tables playing 6 hours (3 sessions 2 hours each) this is achievable. So 6 hours x 26 days = 156 hours of grinding
This of course doesn't take into account working on your game (reviews, sweats, coaching, leak finder, warm up/cool downs)
So hourly is 20$ or less if you look at it this way

I still think it is possible to have 5%+ roi at those limits you just have to table select a bit better, re adjust aggressive strategy ( something I don't like doing honestly) because they are making tons of -ev calls before/at bubble. Good news is that HU at these limits most opponents are bad so you can definitely increase your ROI by dominating them in that area.

You asked me the other day if I am happy with what poker brings me. Average salary in Serbia is 300 euros or so, south of Serbia where I am even less (200 or so). People are unemployed, there are no job opportunities, economy sucks big time and to make this kind of money (or any) living here is close to the miracle. You either gotta do mafia stuff, work government type job (for which you had to bribe somebody 3k euro +) or you gotta do whatever else to survive. Luckily for me, I learned some poker, enough of it to have normal easy life in Serbia and enough to be able to travel enjoy life outside of Serbia. Next step for me is finish coaching and staking, play on my own, start saving up a lot of money for future investments and of course goes without saying keep improving moving limits working less hours increasing hourly etc.

By the way with 5% roi + this number of games a month (3.9k) you get a bit over 4k $ a month which is very nice salary for any country in the world.

P.S. Have you noticed how all those regs on stars are very lazy since only few of them actually grind 3k games+ a month!!!

Continuing SN as SNG player is a bit more actually 37% RB
Also if you do this volume (3900 games x 12 months = 46800 a year x 1.08$ = 50.544$ raked x 5.5 = 277992 VPP ) so next year you get 41% RB
It adds up if you play higher volume, that's all I am saying
Mixing some 30s, going for those 300k SN, you would get next year 42% RB...

Just to add my two cents in as I think this is a pretty good series of posts.

I think you make a good point Predrag when you say most regs are lazy and play less than 3k games per month. The reason I think this is the case is that most of the regs don't see poker as a full time job.

I would consider myself a full time student/part time poker player. I think its important to differentiate the two when starting out in poker and to consider it first a part time job. If we're being honest, only the very best will make $100k+ in sngs per year but there is no harm trying to move up levels and putting yourself in the position to do so.

Another point you make is about average wages in Serbia being a reason as to why you consider poker to be a good full time opportunity. I completely agree and if you can make a better than average living at poker than working a full time job in Serbia, then poker should be the way to go. The problem is that this does not apply to all of Europe. Northern Ireland where I live for example has an average yearly salary of £18,485 for men after tax. I have done the numbers and basically it means with rakeback I can achieve about the same salary playing 2k $15 sngs per month with a 6% roi.

Its definitely doable but for long term viability, I think going to uni is the better option which is why I am unable to play poker on a full time basis. The only other option would be to move up in stakes but that is where I may find a limit to my ability.

I agree with 99% of things you said, lets just take it a step further.

If you take 18k pounds job, it will take you 40 hours a week x 4 = 160 hours a month.
If you play poker 160 hours a month and obtain your 5-6% roi you mentioned, you will make far more than 4k$ a month which brings total of 48k$ + a year.
So what I am trying to say is right now you treat poker as part time which is fine, it brings you extra money and it makes you happy. If you treated is as full time job just like any other job, I am sure you would make twice or more as much as regular salary in Ireland.
When you mentioned Europe, I will just add that I traveled to a lot of places, even lived in UK (London) for year and a half, and I think that 3k$ + a month everywhere in Europe is very decent money and living.
I can compare it also with USA! I graduated at Berklee College of Music, taught there, taught in private schools, taught music privately, did seminars and gigs, and still with music in Boston it was much less hours but never more than 3.5k $ a month
So for me this is easy game, treat it as a job, make money at this moment more than any other career I would do and the best things are : 1) your own boss 2) organize your life the way you want 3) possibility to improve move limits and make more money compared to any other profession
Final thing, you don't have to make 100k a year to be professional grinder poker player. I think people who make 4k+ a month are pretty damn good at what they do - just my 2 cents

Bingo You boys have said it all 10 x better than I every could, we all have weaknesses and I am afraid one of my many is poor English. But I think you have articulated just what I meant.

Now that you mentioned a name I will do a bit of work on him specifically and one or two other guys that I know are good, have a good rep and talk the talk. I off course will not put names on a public forum but am happy to PM them if so required.

Top of my head:

Low wage Serbia, no brainer

UK Salary, a different kettle of fish but $2k a month, liveable, $3k a month would kill for (in my present situation), $4k a month the nutz. But how many actually can and do achieve that? Let the research continue.

BTW good grind yesterday had a feeling it was goner be a big day for you, a fine line aint it.

Not a bad beat story honest Just for fun and I honestly did lol with this sequence of 3 hands in a row. Hand 1 qqqq Hand 2 qqq hand 2 AA and out weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

Originally posted by dogma18
Just to add my two cents in as I think this is a pretty good series of posts.

I think you make a good point Predrag when you say most regs are lazy and play less than 3k games per month. The reason I think this is the case is that most of the regs don't see poker as a full time job.

I would consider myself a full time student/part time poker player. I think its important to differentiate the two when starting out in poker and to consider it first a part time job. If we're being honest, only the very best will make $100k+ in sngs per year but there is no harm trying to move up levels and putting yourself in the position to do so.

Another point you make is about average wages in Serbia being a reason as to why you consider poker to be a good full time opportunity. I completely agree and if you can make a better than average living at poker than working a full time job in Serbia, then poker should be the way to go. The problem is that this does not apply to all of Europe. Northern Ireland where I live for example has an average yearly salary of £18,485 for men after tax. I have done the numbers and basically it means with rakeback I can achieve about the same salary playing 2k $15 sngs per month with a 6% roi.

Its definitely doable but for long term viability, I think going to uni is the better option which is why I am unable to play poker on a full time basis. The only other option would be to move up in stakes but that is where I may find a limit to my ability.

Good post. Again I think it makes my point 2k $15 sng at 6% , is that realistic? I don't know but with hard work and the like I guess so. you have done your maths so no reason to assume differently. But that only gets you a basic salary so no good for a man who wants a family. house etc So you would have to move up, which I am not saying is an issue but a different ball game right? For me £18k would be more than fine.

I am not saying that all the above is not the case I am sure that it is, but even moving up with the same work ethics, you meet better players lower ROI etc etc etc and again how many % of the thousands of players are achieving this, not very many. I suspect and doubt that even the top 20 on the sng leader board are really in a sound position, I could be well off and hope that I am.

Steve

I am very curious what did you come up with financially. For example Elio Oneiro last year had very strong roi on 7s and on 15s , and he is also the guy that plays decent volume

Again top of my head, he seems to be one of the main men, in that he combines the most volume with the most profit.

BTW, who gets all these 2 cents that people are putting in the pot, and how does it affect ROI ♦

P.S. Have you noticed how all those regs on stars are very lazy since only few of them actually grind 3k games+ a month!!!

Not everyone who's not grinding 3k+ games a month is lazy. Not all people are playing 12+ tables so you can't really estimate someone's work ethic/level of effort solely by looking at number of games they play.
There's not much point in just numb grinding day in day out, one has to do a lot of work off tables too and I guess that also counts. It's all part of this job.

Lets look at things from another angle

2k$ a month is piece of cake on any network not just poker stars!
Before I moved to PS , I was earning at least 2k a month on other networks.
The reason for this is better RB, decent roi, great races from site and affiliate.
The reasons why I switched to PS is ability to play any time of the day (organize life differently to be able to go out frequently in the evening not always grind 18-00!!!) and higher ceiling for improvement and money.

If you play Microgaming network 5.5 euro games, you can get 1500 euro a month which is very close to 2k$ (1995$). You achieve this by playing 100 games a day on average, with 50% of RB and 5% roi. The opponents at those limits are very exploitable and it is very realistic to make this money.
Mixing 5.5 and 11 euro limits on Microgaming can and will bring you even more money 2 - 2.5k euro and such.
The only problem with this is the fact that traffic doesn't run all day long, rooms tend to block you from registering for couple of days (totally messes up your grinding) and sometimes you even have to bug them for RB if they didn't pay up right sum.

This is just one of many examples, I also played Ipoker, Ongame, Party Poker. Have experienced many different things and after coming back to Stars I don't regret it a bit.
Yesterday I was able to watch Partizan vs Thun at prime grind time 20:30-22:30 only because I was able to play the games at any time during the day. Tonight I am going to that art exhibit and meet up with chick from Belgrade so I will be grinding from 1pm to 8pm or so tops. You just can't get enough games on other networks unless you are not mixing 2-3 limits and couple of different formats.

So to sum things up, currently at this moment my hourly is far lesser at PS (I used to play ongame 11-108$ 5 max turbos where I made much more than 3k a month) but once things fall into place stars will bring me besides convenience (ability to play any time of the day) also the profit I expect (at least 3k$ + a month to be worth it for me).

Just one final thing, it might sound like a dramatization but it is true for me.
Other rooms tend to merge with different network, keep changing the rules on how many tables you can grind, every month is different promotion and even at any moment some rooms can block your IP , lock your money or simply disappear as the room. With PS you get what you pay for, traffic all day, very clear VIP system, software that is most user friendly and best site in the world that will never close down!

Originally posted by klompa

P.S. Have you noticed how all those regs on stars are very lazy since only few of them actually grind 3k games+ a month!!!

Not everyone who's not grinding 3k+ games a month is lazy. Not all people are playing 12+ tables so you can't really estimate someone's work ethic/level of effort solely by looking at number of games they play.
There's not much point in just numb grinding day in day out, one has to do a lot of work off tables too and I guess that also counts. It's all part of this job.

Don't agree with you man.

3000 games is 100 a day which is 4 hours of grind x 30 days = 120 hours + working on your game.
Every player serious about poker and SNGs will grind at least 120 hours a month. As far as 12 tabling goes you get to it with practice (like with anything).
There are players who play less games but thats only because they table select , play different formats , do coaching besides it. Examples are Tim64 , Ghaleon, MilanBurdych etc
Those exemptions not rule

Originally posted by IvicaIliev77
Don't agree with you man.

3000 games is 100 a day which is 4 hours of grind x 30 days = 120 hours + working on your game.
Every player serious about poker and SNGs will grind at least 120 hours a month. As far as 12 tabling goes you get to it with practice (like with anything).
There are players who play less games but thats only because they table select , play different formats , do coaching besides it. Examples are Tim64 , Ghaleon, MilanBurdych etc
Those exemptions not rule

I 12 tabled for one month(only turbos), played around 135h that month and had about 2.6k games so your numbers are a bit off i think.
Don't you think it's better to table select at least a little or maybe add normal speed tables, which also "hurts" your volume, to try to increase your ROI than just keep focusing on the number of games you MUST play?

Originally posted by klompa

I 12 tabled for one month(only turbos), played around 135h that month and had about 2.6k games so your numbers are a bit off i think.
Don't you think it's better to table select at least a little or maybe add normal speed tables, which also "hurts" your volume, to try to increase your ROI than just keep focusing on the number of games you MUST play?

It may take a bit over 120 hours but still we are not talking about 180 vs 120 , its more like 130-140 hours tops for 3k games.
It is always better to table select when you have a choice. I am chasing 150k and besides grinding working on my game I have coaching to take care of and life related things (family, gym, girls, Partizan games, hanging out with friends) so for me at this moment mixing formats or games just to increase ROI is not possible. Next year I will re-evaluate my goals, whether or not to stay at 15s and go for 300k SN or to play 30s only, or to mix, or to go for SNE playing hypers 30-60s etc
All I care about is getting that 150k SN by the end of the year. Even the RB alone will bring about 10k, 5k for me left just there which is more than enough to continue with 15s next year on my own. Even if I brake even by the end of the year it will not be end of the world , it will be ok money to continue on my own, of course I prefer to have 3%+ ROI but we shall see December 31st whats up with ROI and if I make my goal.

Thread delivers

Ok lets see if I can post this excel doc, hmmmmmmm

Name Started playing Total Games ROI % Profit ABI Total rake Rake Back at 30% Total Average annual earnings
Elio Oneiro Life time Nov-08 84k 9 53k 7.88 50k 15k 65k 13k
This year 19k 3.4 9.7k 13.11 18k 6k 15.7k 15.7k
This month 2.2 1.1 $337 13.17 2.3K $690 $2990 $2990

Reg A Life time Mar-08 103k 9.2 89k 9.99 76k 22.8k 111.8k 22.4k
This year 19k 12.7 30k 13.4 20K 6k 36k 36k
This month 2.1K 7.1 2.7K 12.63 2K $600 3.3k 3.3k

(Coach) player B Life time May-10 12k 22.2 20k 8.85 8k 2.4k 22.4k 7.4k
This year 1.1k 22.8 2k 11.26 $823 $246 2.3k 2.3k
This month 81 7 $78 9.93 $63 $19 $97 $97

Reg C Life time Dec-06 70k 12.7 105K 10.13 58k 17.4k 122.4k 17.4k
This year 10k 15.7 25k 11.12 8.8k 2.6k 27.6k 27.6k
This month 2k 2.3 Minus 1k 10.99 1.5k $450 Minus $550 Minus $550

177272 (me) Life time May-06 6.1k 20.7 4.6k 4.99 2.4k $720 5.3k $760
This year 867 38.6 $475 1.59 $131 $40 $545 $545
This month 110 40.5 $32 1.35 $15 4.5 $37 $37

Nah that don't work, any idea how I put a link to the spread sheet I have done?

Steve

Originally posted by 177272
Nah that don't work, any idea how I put a link to the spread sheet I have done?

Steve

Take a screenshot , save it in paint , post it to imageshack and share link here