Midlife Crisis? What Midlife Crisis?

WHOOP WHOOP EPIC THREAD 1000th POSTEE.

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Yes

Originally posted by jbpatzer

Originally posted by Waiboy
Not sure if you've seen this post/thread, but it may be of some use:

Why we don't call 3bets OOP against regs 100BB deep

BTW epic book will be epic.

lol. Can't read it. Probably need to be gold.

EDIT: Next post will be number 1000 in this blog. Who wants to be the lucky poster???

Worth reading.

Originally posted by Bierbaer
Why we don't call 3bets OOP against regs 100BB deep
I stumbled over quite a few players struggling with the spot below in the last few weeks, so I thought I might as well just summarize the information in an article, I hope it helps ;).

NL Holdem 0.5BB/1BB

SB (100BB)
BB (100BB)
RANDOM PLAYER (100BB)
Hero (100BB)
CO/BU[REG] (100BB)

Dealt to Hero xx

fold, Hero raises to 3BB, fold, CO/BTN raises to 11-12BB, fold, fold, Hero ???

It's a common situation for most of us: We raise in MP or the CO and a reg behind us 3bets us.

So what do we do now?
With the top of our range (i.e. hands like KK, AA and AK) it's pretty clear: 4bet and get it in.
Also with hands like 72o up to something like KTs and even ATs it's pretty easy to determine the best play:
We fold most of the time unless we decide to 4betbluff.

So the hands left are TT-QQ, AQ and AJ.
Apparently a lot of poker players struggle with those strong-but-not-premium hands and end up taking the worst line:
Calling out of position.

Why is calling the worst line?
A lot of people reason that by calling strong Ax they can c/c several streets and trap the opponent and they also plan on moving on a lot of flops.
But as a matter of fact once the pot is around 25BB there's neither room for moving nor are there a lot of possibilities to trap.
"Moving" means check/raising for the most part, and once there are 25BB in the pot and the opponent bets 1/2 pot (~12BB) you're facing a pot of 37BB - check/raising will lead to a lot of weird spots when the opponent shoves and you only need 25% equity to call but you still have to fold.
In fact most people just c/f on almost any flop they don't hit.
This isn't necessarily bad: once someone 3bets you and cbets the flop his range usually is somewhat strong and people are going broke light in 3bet pots, so we don't have too much foldequity and therefore checkraising might not be +EV.
So we can't checkraise-bluff.

But we still have the opportunity to trap the opponent, don't we?
To answer this question let's get a bit more specific: Let's say we open AQo in the CO and BU 3bets, we call.
The possible scenarios are:

J high or K high flop:
We already determined that we end up check/folding most of the time.

The Q high flop:
Now it gets interesting, we hit TPTK so let's get some value.
We probably check every single time (the opponent cbets too much and we want to abuse this) and are faced with the decision to either call or raise.
Let's just say both options have their merits agaist certain opponents.
If the opponent 3bets hands like KQ and QJ we might stack them, if he likes to barrel we can just c/c several streets.
But if we c/r we still don't get it in nearly as often against worse hands as we'd like to: the opponent is just b/folding AK, KJ and other air type of hands and KQ and QJ only make up for 6 combinations each - and he might not even 3bet them all the time.
AA (3 combos) and KK (6 combos) make up for 9 combos already, so stacking off on the Q high flop isn't -EV but it's not as +EV as we'd like it to be either.

So we might consider just c/calling the Q high flop - but in this case on the turn we'll quickly realize that there's not much we can do to get additional value: If we check the opponent is giving up a decent amount of the time with air.
At the same time if we check and he bets we actually aren't too happy about it either: His 2ndbarrelingrange is pretty strong, so we feel like we're getting valuetowned already.
To prevent the opponent from checking back we could lead out - but now he's just folding all of his bluffs but he still continues with all better hands, so leading out thwarts our diabolic plan to trap him.

The A high flop:
Ok so in a nutshell if we don't hit we check/fold most of the time and on Q high boards we don't win too much overall, but we still have A high boards to get some value, right?
Well, not exactly. The A high board has the same disadvantages as the Q high board - but even worse.
In regards of check/raising on the Q high board there were KQ and QJ, but on the A high board there's only AJ - and two aces are out so AJ only has 8 combos.
Also by check/raising we force the opponent to fold all pocket pairs and all of his air.
Ok no problem, the plan was to trap him anyway.
So lets say the board is Axx with x T or lower.
We check/call.
The turn is x, also T or lower: now the trapping begins - or does it?
Let's first look at our range in the opponents eyes:
he 3bet on the CO or BU and another reg coldcalled his 3bet OOP.
Pretty unlikely the opponent is "bluffcalling" OOP, so he most likely has a good pocket pair or two broadway cards.
Now there's an A high flop and the opponen check/calls knowing that the pot will be as big as 50BB after his call.
This screams for strength obviously.

So to switch back the positions if we check again on the turn the opponent will just check back most pocket pairs because he assumes we have Ax once we c/c on an A high board OOP with so much money in the pot already.
He will also not bluffbet because he expects to have little foldequity.
Of course if there are some dynamics going on he might suspect we check/call QQ or JJ sometimes on the flop, but if we're capable of that we are also very likely to just 4bet preflop.

Having said that we obviously don't ever win much from the opponents bluffs, therefore the plan we came up with preflop is pretty much worthless - the opponent just doesn't play along.

So to get back to our preflop-decision:
As we saw calling is obviously not an option. If you are in a spot like this you can 4bet if foldequity+potequity are sufficient and you can also just fold.

There's nothing wrong with folding, if you can fold here it means the opponent is not 3betting often enough to make 4betting profitable - but that also means he's not putting pressure on you by 3betting light, so you don't have a reason to play back in the first place.

I picked AQ as an example, but I guess you're able to see the problems you will have with QQ OOP (facing overcards etc).

Notice that if stacks get deeper or you have some history with the opponent (or reads) the assumptions above might not be accurate any more and there might be a reason to call a 3bet OOP.
But - even though in poker it's almost always wrong to make general statements - against unknowns it's pretty safe to say that for 100BB it's always wrong to call a 3bet out of position.

Best regards
Bierbaer

PS: I just wrote this and scanned it for mistakes quickly, there might be some left.
If you see one just post and I will correct it.

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Not calling 3b OOP makes jb a dull boy. Not calling 3b OOP makes jb a dull boy. Not calling 3b OOP makes jb a dull boy. Not calling 3b OOP makes jb a dull boy. Not calling 3b OOP makes jb a dull boy. Not calling 3b OOP makes jb a dull boy. Not calling 3b OOP makes jb a dull boy. Not calling 3b OOP makes jb a dull boy. Not calling 3b OOP makes jb a dull boy. Not calling 3b OOP makes jb a dull boy. Not calling 3b OOP makes jb a dull boy. Not calling 3b OOP makes jb a dull boy. Not calling 3b OOP makes jb a dull boy. Not calling 3b OOP makes jb a dull boy. Not calling 3b OOP makes jb a dull boy. Not calling 3b OOP makes jb a dull boy. Not calling 3b OOP makes jb a dull boy. Not calling 3b OOP makes jb a dull boy. Not calling 3b OOP makes jb a dull boy. Not calling 3b OOP makes jb a dull boy. Not calling 3b OOP makes jb a dull boy. Not calling 3b OOP makes jb a dull boy. Not calling 3b OOP makes jb a dull boy. Not calling 3b OOP makes jb a dull boy. Not calling 3b OOP makes jb a dull boy. Not calling 3b OOP makes jb a dull boy. Not calling 3b OOP makes jb a dull boy. Not calling 3b OOP makes jb a dull boy. Not calling 3b OOP makes jb a dull boy. Not calling 3b OOP makes jb a dull boy. Not calling 3b OOP makes jb a dull boy. Not calling 3b OOP makes jb a dull boy. Not calling 3b OOP makes jb a dull boy. Not calling 3b OOP makes jb a dull boy. Not calling 3b OOP makes jb a dull boy. Not calling 3b OOP makes jb a dull boy. Not calling 3b OOP makes jb a dull boy. Not calling 3b OOP makes jb a dull boy. Not calling 3b OOP makes jb a dull boy. Not calling 3b OOP makes jb a dull boy. Not calling 3b OOP makes jb a dull boy. Not calling 3b OOP makes jb a dull boy. Not calling 3b OOP makes jb a dull boy. Not calling 3b OOP makes jb a dull boy. Not calling 3b OOP makes jb a dull boy. Not calling 3b OOP makes jb a dull boy. Not calling 3b OOP makes jb a dull boy. Not calling 3b OOP makes jb a dull boy.

Damned if I do. Damned if I don't. Next time, I'm min4betting. That'll show 'em!

My monitor arrived! I now have all the ingredients I need for success: clapped out laptop, antique USB mouse, glass of nice Chardonnay, old man's reading glasses, and monitor. Or have I forgotten something? I'm off to call any bet at all OOP!

nice table btw. Is it the one on which scramble pwnage is dished out by son nr1?

I suggest you also get an additional keyboard, at least I find it quite unconfortable to look at both screens ant type just under one (esp if you have only 2 tabs on laptop, you will be looking at your additional screen more, and turn laptop at some weird angle). ofc imo

Just out of curiosity... Have you ever used the phrase: "Sorry, sweety, Daddy's grinding atm". Ofc, something similar also works!

whats with the wooden background. blue carpet imo

grats on new monitor jb.

Originally posted by antonio47211
nice table btw. Is it the one on which scramble pwnage is dished out by son nr1?

I suggest you also get an additional keyboard, at least I find it quite unconfortable to look at both screens ant type just under one (esp if you have only 2 tabs on laptop, you will be looking at your additional screen more, and turn laptop at some weird angle). ofc imo

It is indeed the scrabble battlefield. Oh, if that table could talk!

Well, I played for three hours tonight, and it was pretty much all mouse. Only played the four tables on the monitor though. Don't need to type. I guess the perfect set up is a work in progress.

Originally posted by EmanuelC16
Just out of curiosity... Have you ever used the phrase: "Sorry, sweety, Daddy's grinding atm". Ofc, something similar also works!

It is -EV to play until the beasts are in bed. Fortunately, number two son was so naughty today, he got sent to bed early. Let's hope he's bad again tomorrow! And don't ask me what he did. I just go by what mrsjb tells me. I'm not going to look a gift horse in the mouth!

Originally posted by lessthanthreee
whats with the wooden background. blue carpet imo

grats on new monitor jb.

The wooden floor reminds me of the floors of the endless village halls and working men's clubs I've played chess in. I like it. Does that make me weird?

As I said above, managed to play for about three hours tonight. I think this is the first time I've managed more than 1K cash hands in a night. As you can see from the graph, had a very frustrating start getting my money in way ahead against calling stations, and getting sucked out on (e.g. QQ < KJ, QQ < 53s (!)). (This is the first time my green line and yellow line have parted company. Pffff!) So I knuckled down and brought it back to 1 BI down, but I should have stopped. I think I was tired and started spewing again. But I didn't call any 3bets OOP, so I count the evening a success, if not a financial one. I will have to get used to this if I'm going to get in the volume that I told TT I'd be able to. I could always try playing six tables instead of four. Not sure. I do have the screen space now. ♠_biggrin:

Full Tilt - $0.10 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

UTG: $10.00
MP: $10.87
CO: $10.00
BTN: $10.04
Hero (SB): $10.00
BB: $10.05

Hero posts SB $0.05, BB posts BB $0.10, CO posts DB $0.10

Pre Flop: ($0.25) Hero has Q♣ Q♠

fold, fold, CO raises to $0.30, fold, Hero raises to $1.00, fold, CO calls $0.70

Flop: ($2.10, 2 players) 7♣ J♥ 5♦
Hero bets $2.10, CO calls $2.10

Turn: ($6.30, 2 players) 5♠
Hero bets $6.90 and is all-in, CO calls $6.90 and is all-in

River: ($20.10, 2 players) 6♥

CO shows 5♣ 3♣ (Three of a Kind, Fives) (PreFlop 20%, Flop 24%, Turn 95%)
Hero shows Q♣ Q♠ (Two Pair, Queens and Fives) (PreFlop 80%, Flop 76%, Turn 5%)
CO wins $18.76

He called my 3bet IP, so I suppose that's OK.

Full Tilt - $0.10 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

BTN: $9.85
SB: $10.08
BB: $3.50
UTG: $20.78
MP: $5.17
Hero (CO): $10.70

SB posts SB $0.05, BB posts BB $0.10

Pre Flop: ($0.15) Hero has A♠ J♥

fold, MP calls $0.10, Hero raises to $0.50, fold, fold, fold, MP calls $0.40

Flop: ($1.15, 2 players) 2♣ A♦ T♥
MP checks, Hero checks

Turn: ($1.15, 2 players) 5♥
MP checks, Hero bets $0.85, MP raises to $3.70, Hero calls $2.85

River: ($8.55, 2 players) 3♦
MP bets $0.97 and is all-in, Hero calls $0.97

MP shows 4♣ 3♥ (Straight, Five High) (PreFlop 35%, Flop 19%, Turn 100%)
Hero mucks A♠ J♥ (One Pair, Aces) (PreFlop 65%, Flop 81%, Turn 0%)
MP wins $9.80

Such a dry flop, I thought it might be fun to check behind and trap him. How I laughed when I saw his hand! Ha ha ha ha ha ha!

Seriously, this limit is sooo beatable. Just need to be better organized mentally.

.

Wooo 2 monitors. Nice!

I was just driving back from the local shop when I drove past the mother of one of number two son's friends. This reminded me of the last time I met her, which was at the village Halloween party. There she reminded me of the first time we had met, which was at one of my son's friend's birthday party, which was at the local swimming pool. I had distinguished myself on that occasion by leaning backwards against the wall, at exactly the point where the alarm button stuck out (stupid design imo), thereby setting off the alarm and causing evacuation, panic and parental mirth. I had completely forgotten about this, which is the point of my story. My selective memory keeps me happy. Plenty of shitty things have happened to me in the past, which I am an expert at forgetting. Mrsjb tends to be the opposite, and remember the bad stuff far too clearly. If you average us, we make a balanced person.

So. The point. I think my selective memory is making me forget all the times I get to the river and lose, and just remember the times when I check/call it down and show up with the best hand. If mrsjb played much poker, she'd probably be the opposite and never play unless she has the nuts. If I'm going to improve, I need to sort out my memory problems, and learn some lessons from my experience instead of sweeping it under the carpet. My worry is that if this leaks out into rl, I will be a les happy person. Who would have thought poker could bring on an existential crisis! Pffff! Such a wanker!

Anyway, Merry Christmas everyone, and if you're not in a Christian society, Happy Holidays, and if you don't even get a holiday, good luck anyway.

Why wish someone happy holidays? If you're on holiday, and you're not happy, you're beyond help IMO.

Merry Christmas!

Merry christmas to you too sir!

Nice red line btw. ("nice red line" is like the biggest compliment you can ever get from a poker player imo ♦ )
How come we didnt play against each other yet? Its so sick, i played like 14k hands and still no against you.