Piece two:
Originally posted by kavboj84
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Im gonna show you that you can be still balanced even if you are tight as the tightest of pinholes.
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Yes, you can. But you are extremely exploitable. Have you understood the difference between being perfectly balanced and unexploitable?
Piece 3:
Originally posted by kavboj84
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The problem is that you dont look at the game as a whole. This thing is not about cards and combinations, it is about equities and frequencies, the cards are only the representation of those and the fact that you can indeed exploit someone playing so as you wrote is rather the result of an imperfect implementation of a balanced strategy (i.e. not a balanced strategy) than of your original assumption of being overly tight.
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Well, no. It becomes very very much about the cards when you are too tight. Your hand is sometimes totally face up (e.g BB has the A 
blocker).
In fact, this is your biggest misunderstanding. You are exploitable because you are predictable, sometimes with 100% certainty. You are exploitable because you often must pay off when you are raised.
Piece 4:
Originally posted by kavboj84
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We dont need a magical device as we can use bots for the test BB calls down with whatever range you like and SB raises and bets down with the below method.
To achieve to proper ratio of value: bluffs BB montiors the boards as the following:
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Yada yada yada
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So this way, you dont rely on card combos as an anchor point, hence you can eliminate undesirable game states and avoid being exploited in the way you described.
Sorry kav, the undesirable game states are still there because the BB has his holecards and the board to guide him. What do you do if the A 
hits on the river? Fire again?
Told ya I become extremely cranky when provoked too much :(. Time out for me now. Really!
Originally posted by YohanN7
The blocker effect is now total. When the BB holds either of A
Yes I admit that I made a mistake when I didnt count with this possibility, I was only focusing on those cases when you block the other combinations of AA and simply took those out. Now that I see how it works, its clear for me now that you cant balance a range this narrow. However Im not sure that there isnt a method for a bit wider ranges that counts with the blocker effect, because this means only that you are overbluffing in cases where the blocker effect becomes significant, and you have to check with bluffs to maintain the required value:bluff ratio.
Yes, you can. But you are extremely exploitable. Have you understood the difference between being perfectly balanced and unexploitable?
Ofc, I even said before that you were right that a too narrow range can be exploited by folding preflop , because they dont take the blinds down enough times, but I didnt find that important because the starting point of the conversation was postlop exploitation. To be fair despite all this long chatting I still dont see how you would exploit postflop someone who opens one position tighter than he should if he doesnt make mistakes postflop, because I dont think a 20-30-40 % range is tight enough to reason out how much bluff% it contains with the help of the blocker effect, or if you can, why cant you do it vs an openraiser a position earlier ?
Sorry kav, the undesirable game states are still there because the BB has his holecards and the board to guide him. What do you do if the A Heart hits on the river? Fire again?
You cant bet there cause you dont have a value range.Like on an AAA board you cant have an ace so you cant have a value range. I wonder what would be the the utmost tight range wherewith you can avoid being exploited that way ?
Told ya I become extremely cranky when provoked too much
Sorry I didnt mean to provoke you, Im not mad at you at all, nay Im all happy that there is someone with whom I could discuss this through because other people often see things that I cant perceive and by their feedback I can find where my logic fails.
Avataren : Thank for your advice, but I'm just not and never will be that kind of guy who can learn by watching other people play and then copying them, because I cant accept something until I see how it works and why it works the way it does. Hence I simply learn a thousand times more from conversations like this because it makes me think about the game mechanics, even if they never come up IRL in this exact form.
You cant bet there cause you dont have a value range.Like on an AAA board you cant have an ace so you cant have a value range. I wonder what would be the the utmost tight range wherewith you can avoid being exploited that way ?
That would probably take a true GTO range for all streets. They are hard to come by 
And oh, YOU haven't provoked me. I wrote that wrong. I provoke myself when I get into too long discussions, and I easily do, here and elsewhere. I want people to understand what I mean right away, and when I fail to get my point through, I can't let things go. I don't need anyone ever agreeing with me, it's not the same thing. It's understanding what I'm trying to say (whether right or wrong) that is important to me. I'm only mildly to medium stubborn those times when I'm wrong nowadays ♠_biggrin:
Originally posted by YohanN7
You cant bet there cause you dont have a value range.Like on an AAA board you cant have an ace so you cant have a value range. I wonder what would be the the utmost tight range wherewith you can avoid being exploited that way ?
That would probably take a true GTO range for all streets. They are hard to come by
And oh, YOU haven't provoked me. I wrote that wrong. I provoke myself when I get into too long discussions, and I easily do, here and elsewhere. I want people to understand what I mean right away, and when I fail to get my point through, I can't let things go. I don't need anyone ever agreeing with me, it's not the same thing. It's understanding what I'm trying to say (whether right or wrong) that is important to me. I'm only mildly to medium stubborn those times when I'm wrong nowadays ♠_biggrin:
as you said it just 1 post ago .. time out for you damn swedish now shut up and find something useful to do in your silly life -.- stupid boy.
http://i.imgur.com/MvKWM6x.png
Originally posted by Avataren
as you said it just 1 post ago .. time out for you damn swedish now shut up and find something useful to do in your silly life -.- stupid boy.
Man are you serious or is that just jape ? Why are you folks constantly scolding each other , Sweden and Danes are almost the same nation, and you act like to you were enemies all the time
Originally posted by kavboj84
Originally posted by Avataren
as you said it just 1 post ago .. time out for you damn swedish now shut up and find something useful to do in your silly life -.- stupid boy.
Don't you ever dare compare me to Yohan ever again(i dont mean this as an angry thing towards you kav) Sweden and Denmark is NOT the same country or nation and we are never going to be anywhere near like those guys .. On this forum im trying my hardest to act nice / write nicer words than i really want to..
We are mortal enemies, its in our genes to hate and fight each other,even though the said war between us is said to have ended hundreds of years ago.. It's only on the surface and to not be attacked or threatened by other countries in collab. What you just did was like comparing the patriots of america to the terrorists of al queda. that comparison is like what you said about Denmark and Sweden being the same almost.
I don't like yohan because hes from that country. he knows it and we both accept it, we/i tolerate each other on the forums. Don't you worry we have had our fights in private (skype etc) and even though we've kinda tried to be more friendly towards each other it never worked out. probably mostly because he is who he is and that personality some of those traits are complete opposites of what I have a personality.
I must say that its not like we are sending each other death threats. I would rather say we have a lighter view on denmark and swedens "relationship" than most I know.. I had friends who deliberately went to sweden to kick their puny butts. I fully supported them.
http://i.imgur.com/MvKWM6x.png
Originally posted by kavboj84
Avataren : Thank for your advice, but I'm just not and never will be that kind of guy who can learn by watching other people play and then copying them, because I cant accept something until I see how it works and why it works the way it does. Hence I simply learn a thousand times more from conversations like this because it makes me think about the game mechanics, even if they never come up IRL in this exact form.
Sounds more like you have trusting issues but I do understand why you feel that way etc. But then again. I don't really see the need to really go write whatever % that is needed to do this and that. Its not like knowing all that will you apply it 100% on the tables. What i more suggested was to take it a bit easier on the in depth explanations as to why this works and that works. In other words. If someone who is an established player or in this case a coach. If he says something or teaches it means he is confident in his words and knowledge, sure you can question it I say no otherwise. But know that its not like hes saying "AA is the worst hand ever, fold preflop" there is always some truth and experience in the words of a respected guy who teach others and always had success in coaching/teaching.
I'm not saying Boomer is the absolute poker god or always right. I'm just saying its okay once in a while to trust other peoples words .. Even I have admitted before what YohaN is saying is correct. I'm disgusted with myself for agreeing with him on certain things. But i can't deny some of the stuff hes saying is correct / more correct to the absolute truth. Without him having to explain to me in depth about why and what minuscule percentage that makes his words right.
http://i.imgur.com/MvKWM6x.png
Thats a bit exaggerated cause Swedish and Danish people are related very closely to each other genetically,culturally, and in language while the Al-quaida couldnt be more far from the USA in any of these aspects.
Its your business how you want to live your life, but my opinion is that its not a wise decision to judge someone based on his nationality. What if the next week a new Swedish coach will replace boomer ? Or if you had a crush on a Swedish chick ? I think you can find nice and less nice people in every country.
IMO most of these kind of hatred has nothing to do with ones personal experiences, but rather with politics, brainwashing propaganda and the old divide&conquer trick. Dont let them fool you.
As to the 'trusting issue': no it isnt, its just how my brain works. I cant mug up raw data, so I usually try to understand the mechanism and the logic how it is produced, so when I need them I can provide the answer by repeating the process myself.
Originally posted by kavboj84
Thats a bit exaggerated cause Swedish and Danish people are related very closely to each other genetically,culturally, and in language while the Al-quaida couldnt be more far from the USA in any of these aspects.Its your business how you want to live your life, but my opinion is that its not a wise decision to judge someone based on his nationality. What if the next week a new Swedish coach will replace boomer ? Or if you had a crush on a Swedish chick ? I think you can find nice and less nice people in every country.
IMO most of these kind of hatred has nothing to do with ones personal experiences, but rather with politics, brainwashing propaganda and the old divide&conquer trick. Dont let them fool you.
As to the 'trusting issue': no it isnt, its just how my brain works. I cant mug up raw data, so I usually try to understand the mechanism and the logic how it is produced, so when I need them I can provide the answer by repeating the process myself.
I am not exaggerating and you have no right in telling me how it is. We and the swedish bugs have nothing in common both language wise and culturally. they are mere insects compared to us. sorry but im getting really mad now. I do not like you talking about danes as if swedes were on the same level as us. This is my opinion and since I live in Denmark I think i know this mentality a bit better than you. comparing us is an insult to me and Yohan for that matter.
I would leave PS if Boomer leaves. Hes the sole reason im still on this board.. Second I could never fall in love with a swedish blond with an IQ of 5 .. Mainly because I am married to my soulmate and I wouldn't touch a blond with an IQ of 5 even if i was paid(that has nothing to do with nationality thats just in general)
But lets stop this conversation since it is going offtrack and a matter of personal experience and opinion and this board is supposed to be about Poker.
/end of topic.
http://i.imgur.com/MvKWM6x.png
Hello neorauk,
I simply don't understand the comments here. They say "The ORC is wayyyto tight for 2014's games". If you are a relative beginner at the game, I thought and do still think that it is absolutely viable to play these charts (or the approx chart, which I use) at stakes like 0,25/0,50 or 0,5/1 with absolutely no deviation. I know (apart from me) two other countrymen of mine who are big winners at those stakes with a 24/18 (yes!)-style, knowing that people call down with mediocre holdings soo much that ist's much better for ourselves not (!!) to have too wide ranges postflop in order not to be overtaken by opponents' better kickers all the time. And yes, I do say that the "tight is right"-principle is still correct, even in 2014, especially at the above mentioned stakes. By the way: Don't forget the rake!!! It is so tremendously high at the low stakes that I don't see any purpose to loosen up our game at all. It's much more important imo to learn a solid postflop game, to make those thin value bets on the river, playing the standard lines HU for at least 100000 hands all of the time (and never deviating from them) and so on.
Ok, if you play 2/4 or higher, then I would recommend a more aggressive style, too, but even there you can find players with 28/20-styles that are at least breakeven players (which means winners after rakeback). By the way: You can play a 35/27 style profitably even in the lowest stakes, but then you must be very good (!!) postflop, which I wouldn't assume with beginners at the game.
Best regards,
Sendrafreak
P.S.: Boomer, where are you at the tables, I never see you, are not a POKER STAR anymore?
Originally posted by Sendrafreak
Hello neorauk,I simply don't understand the comments here. They say "The ORC is wayyyto tight for 2014's games". If you are a relative beginner at the game, I thought and do still think that it is absolutely viable to play these charts (or the approx chart, which I use) at stakes like 0,25/0,50 or 0,5/1 with absolutely no deviation. I know (apart from me) two other countrymen of mine who are big winners at those stakes with a 24/18 (yes!)-style, knowing that people call down with mediocre holdings soo much that ist's much better for ourselves not (!!) to have too wide ranges postflop in order not to be overtaken by opponents' better kickers all the time. And yes, I do say that the "tight is right"-principle is still correct, even in 2014, especially at the above mentioned stakes. By the way: Don't forget the rake!!! It is so tremendously high at the low stakes that I don't see any purpose to loosen up our game at all. It's much more important imo to learn a solid postflop game, to make those thin value bets on the river, playing the standard lines HU for at least 100000 hands all of the time (and never deviating from them) and so on.
Ok, if you play 2/4 or higher, then I would recommend a more aggressive style, too, but even there you can find players with 28/20-styles that are at least breakeven players (which means winners after rakeback). By the way: You can play a 35/27 style profitably even in the lowest stakes, but then you must be very good (!!) postflop, which I wouldn't assume with beginners at the game.
Best regards,
SendrafreakP.S.: Boomer, where are you at the tables, I never see you, are not a POKER STAR anymore?
these charts we are talking about gives you a 18/12 something style. not a 24/18 style because that last 24/18 can work . Still so tight I wont believe your a big winner nor your countrymen.
if you are looking to be the best of the best at 2/4 then stats such as 35/28/11 is way better than 28/20
I myself play around 32/24/10 and i am a big winner in terms of winrate at the stakes im playing at.
http://i.imgur.com/MvKWM6x.png
Originally posted by Avataren
these charts we are talking about gives you a 18/12 something style. not a 24/18 style because that last 24/18 can work . Still so tight I wont believe your a big winner nor your countrymen.
if you are looking to be the best of the best at 2/4 then stats such as 35/28/11 is way better than 28/20
I myself play around 32/24/10 and i am a big winner in terms of winrate at the stakes im playing at.
No no, ORC gives you 24/18 stats if you play strictly due to them. If you are a constant winner with 32/24 at your stakes (which stakes, 0,5/1, 1/2, 2/4 or even higher?), then congrats, but there is no proof that it's the only way of being a constant winner. And believe me, there are definiely 24/18 winners on stakes like 0,25/0,50 and 0,5/1. Prob. you are very good postflop, so for you it's not a problem, but for beginners I cannot recommend such a loose style at all (and again: the raaaake is hiiiiigh).
Yes, there is a big difference between the stakes.
I wouldn't recommend anyone to deviate much from the charts in early position. Playing, say, T :heart:8 UTG in a game where you can expect two callers is absolutely a losing proposition.
Higher stakes are different. First off, there you can count on fewer callers, and often the
pot will be contested heads up. This is very different. Now you need to have a wider range than the charts because if you don't, you wont get paid off with your good hands and wont be able to bluff (because you can't represent many boards).
So, right, sticking to the charts is very much okay at lower stakes, perhaps even optimal for the early positions. I'd still say the later positions are a little too tight. Playing these positions is much easier, and versus too loose fish in front, we miss out on value if we don't open up. But granted as well, marginal hands are marginal hands, so at the lower stakes where people can't hand read (meaning you don't need them to make yourself harder to read), these marginal winnings are negligible.
P.S.: Boomer, where are you at the tables, I never see you, are not a POKER STAR anymore?
1) I'd hide myself from search evn if I was online
2) I wouldn't be playing cash games atm if I was online
3) I haven't been online since I was canned from the EN Coordinator position because I haven't had time because I've been thinking long term and finishing my accounting qualifications.
Interesting thread, just have a couple comments...:
I fully support kavboj's mission to ask for proper explanation for doing stuff! A good player can say something is good and something is not but to truly own the subject, to be able to apply and adjust in different situations, you need to know why and how, not just what. So if Phil Ivey says something is good I believe it's good but it's not enough for me to implement it good in my own game.
What comes to the open raising ranges, one really important point is how skilled and experienced you are at postflop play. If you're skilled enough to play 32s profitably on the button, then play it! If not, you should of course fold it, simple as that. It's of course hard to know this if your not very experienced, but then a tighter side might be easier to learn with. For the more experienced guys with a lot of hands in their databases: how about checking your winrates from different positions with different kinds of hands. Maybe you can then find opportunities to add something more or leave something out.
Originally posted by Boomer2k10
P.S.: Boomer, where are you at the tables, I never see you, are not a POKER STAR anymore?
1) I'd hide myself from search evn if I was online
2) I wouldn't be playing cash games atm if I was online
3) I haven't been online since I was canned from the EN Coordinator position because I haven't had time because I've been thinking long term and finishing my accounting qualifications.Understandable. Obviously there ARE things which are more important than poker, at least for the most people.
Originally posted by Sendrafreak
Understandable. Obviously there ARE things which are more important than poker, at least for the most people.
I've never heard of those 
