fixed limit extended charts question

I really dont think Ps extended charts are "THAT" tight and useless. After around 20k hands dealt, my overall vp is %20. according to hm2 I am a TAG player. I ve been training with PS for some time, and I strictly follow the extended chart. And I am quite happy with my current results. I am mostly playing 05/10c FR tables and after about 20k hands, my winrate is 3.76BB/100 atm. (doubled up my bankroll already) And let me say that Im NOT a lucky person when it comes to card games, despite of all those epic suck outs (a simple example is: losing to 2-7os with a KK set on the flop, now you figure out how is that even possible)

BUT!....
well yes there is a "BUT", which is, I didnt just take the charts, print out, and start rolling! Of course If you do not train yourself about at least standart plays for flop, turn and river, no charts will do no matter how MODERN or MAGICAL they are. you have assumed that anyone using these charts will surely, mess it up on the flop and on. I think your critism might be correct for someone "ONLY" who won't learn and improve his/her game but merely trying to use the charts hoping to hit something on the flop and on. you are not proving the system wrong, but an individual.
the biggest contradiction in your opinion imo is that, the charts will only work in micro limits, (where the table VP ratios are between %35 up to %50!) in this case, as a tight player who uses an outdated super tight chart, i am supposed to be exploited and crushed right? but on the other hand, isnt it the optimal play (TAG) against so called fishes, maniacs, loose aggressive players, if you want to benefit from their mistakes? thanks to hm2 and playing in the same tables everyday, I can clearly see that the only constant winners are the same TAG or rock players farming micro tables with vp ratio between %14 to %20. so I guess they are using about the same charts such PS extended charts. Because I am using those charts and my vp is also around %20. As for the higher limits;
I am not that pro to tell what is outdated or not but another thing I noticed is that, the higher the limits, lower the table VP is where I play atm (pstars) You would be really lucky to find a table with a VP ratio of over %30 in games 0.25/.50c and higher. imho many people must be still going with the idea of "Tight is right"in this case, no one seems to be using more updated and looser charts
But I noticed something, a coach agreed that these charts are outdated for today's games. Well then PS, what are still waiting for to update the charts!
btw excuse my english, it is not my main langeuge so I hope I was able to explain what I meant!

Hi, Sonsuzbalyoz,
Welcome to the forums!

Epic first post.

I totally agree that the charts are just starting point.

They aren't much use without a solid post-flop game to back them up -- especially playing FL

Best of luck,
--VS

Originally posted by Sonsuzbalyoz
I really dont think Ps extended charts are "THAT" tight and useless. After around 20k hands dealt, my overall vp is %20. according to hm2 I am a TAG player. I ve been training with PS for some time, and I strictly follow the extended chart. And I am quite happy with my current results. I am mostly playing 05/10c FR tables and after about 20k hands, my winrate is 3.76BB/100 atm. (doubled up my bankroll already) And let me say that Im NOT a lucky person when it comes to card games, despite of all those epic suck outs (a simple example is: losing to 2-7os with a KK set on the flop, now you figure out how is that even possible)

BUT!....
well yes there is a "BUT", which is, I didnt just take the charts, print out, and start rolling! Of course If you do not train yourself about at least standart plays for flop, turn and river, no charts will do no matter how MODERN or MAGICAL they are. you have assumed that anyone using these charts will surely, mess it up on the flop and on. I think your critism might be correct for someone "ONLY" who won't learn and improve his/her game but merely trying to use the charts hoping to hit something on the flop and on. you are not proving the system wrong, but an individual.
the biggest contradiction in your opinion imo is that, the charts will only work in micro limits, (where the table VP ratios are between %35 up to %50!) in this case, as a tight player who uses an outdated super tight chart, i am supposed to be exploited and crushed right? but on the other hand, isnt it the optimal play (TAG) against so called fishes, maniacs, loose aggressive players, if you want to benefit from their mistakes? thanks to hm2 and playing in the same tables everyday, I can clearly see that the only constant winners are the same TAG or rock players farming micro tables with vp ratio between %14 to %20. so I guess they are using about the same charts such PS extended charts. Because I am using those charts and my vp is also around %20. As for the higher limits;
I am not that pro to tell what is outdated or not but another thing I noticed is that, the higher the limits, lower the table VP is where I play atm (pstars) You would be really lucky to find a table with a VP ratio of over %30 in games 0.25/.50c and higher. imho many people must be still going with the idea of "Tight is right"in this case, no one seems to be using more updated and looser charts
But I noticed something, a coach agreed that these charts are outdated for today's games. Well then PS, what are still waiting for to update the charts!
btw excuse my english, it is not my main langeuge so I hope I was able to explain what I meant!

i used them aswell before I found my first coach Leader22. I was actually losing quite a bit but thats mostly because of my poor postflop at the time. Leader now gave me a chart and that gave me a 30/20/10 stats I had lost about 500BB over 20k hands. after I started using these charts after my first coaching session with him I instantly over 10k hands were BE (won 500BB) from then on i had like 4 hours+ with him and i started winning everyday and with +2BB/100 WR If i play 5/Tc now I win about 8 out of 10 days. I have now played (sadly) 161k hands at 5/Tc 6max. and won more than 3000BB I can win at these games with 1 eye closed and playing 8 tables at once. They are that easy.

and to answer you about updating the charts. Even I know that PStrategy does not care one bit for us FL players and our little community. They won't even pay someone to update these charts and articles. They'd rather focus on the big games such as NL .. Understandable from a company perspective but still sad for us FL lovers.

and another thing. using ps outdated charts you won't a dime on 25/50c+ .. the games are far too aggressive there. Yes I see a lot of nits at the limit (im playing 25/50c now) But i haven't seen one of them being a winner. they just keep bleeding to the blinds and the aggressiveness. and the better players exploit this but folding when they raise and by raising them a ton more.

I have a friend. He is a professional poker player. Poker is his one and only source of income and he is doing really good. his bankroll is about 300k$ after living expenses. but he only plays NL, MTT and SNG online and he also goes to real life cash games tourneys etc. He is purely mathematical guy a type you dont like so much I guess ♦ for him, life is all about EQUITY. he wont take a single step if he thinks he has no ev in it! it is not only about poker! this is his life style even if he decides to buy something he first considers what ev he has for buying the stuff ♦
Anyways, once, I asked him about FL games and his answer was, FL is dead... dont waste your time with FL. if you wanna play poker regularly and if you gonna take this seriously, learn MTT NL sng etc.
Now, as I know him, if he insists on something about poker, he certainly has solid reasons. but on the other hand I just like FL! I too noticed long ago, after seeing the poor amount of tables, and solid tight games of higher limits.

Originally posted by Sonsuzbalyoz
I have a friend. He is a professional poker player. Poker is his one and only source of income and he is doing really good. his bankroll is about 300k$ after living expenses. but he only plays NL, MTT and SNG online and he also goes to real life cash games tourneys etc. He is purely mathematical guy a type you dont like so much I guess ♦ for him, life is all about EQUITY. he wont take a single step if he thinks he has no ev in it! it is not only about poker! this is his life style even if he decides to buy something he first considers what ev he has for buying the stuff ♦
Anyways, once, I asked him about FL games and his answer was, FL is dead... dont waste your time with FL. if you wanna play poker regularly and if you gonna take this seriously, learn MTT NL sng etc.
Now, as I know him, if he insists on something about poker, he certainly has solid reasons. but on the other hand I just like FL! I too noticed long ago, after seeing the poor amount of tables, and solid tight games of higher limits.

in some ways hes right that nl sng mtt is more popular and fl is less popular. But theres no way i would say FL is dead as a whole. Maybe high stakes where theres only like 7 regs hunting 1 - 3 whales. (toxic and so dumb) but the micros and low stakes FL is by far not dead and still alive. there are quite a few who plays these games and earn a ton considering the stakes. (have a look at the polish forums and their FL blogs and graphs for example)

btw are you mostly playing 6 max or FR. i agree 6 max tables are nowhere near dead but other than 2c/4c and 5c/10c tables, higher FR tables are clearly in crises about poor amount of games atm. they earn a ton in "upper limit" micros I guess? cuz Im not sure IF someone can make a living by just playing 2c/4c and 5c/10c unless they would play 20 hours a day and keep winning without constent suck ups and downswings I guess

Originally posted by Sonsuzbalyoz
btw are you mostly playing 6 max or FR. i agree 6 max tables are nowhere near dead but other than 2c/4c and 5c/10c tables, higher FR tables are clearly in crises about poor amount of games atm. they earn a ton in "upper limit" micros I guess? cuz Im not sure IF someone can make a living by just playing 2c/4c and 5c/10c unless they would play 20 hours a day and keep winning without constent suck ups and downswings I guess

only 6max.. full ring makes me bored even 20 tabling FR is boring

I dont think anyone can live off 5/Tc except maybe some really really poor russians or africans of some sort. If you play long enough it is quite reasonable money you can earn. like hemul73 has earned more than $5000 at 5/Tc 6max me $300 and i know a ton of other "regs" if you can call them that has earned a few hundreds more than me.

but you still think the PS extended charts are too tight for FR games right? no misunderstandings there? and what do you think about 6 max charts? please dont say they are too tight too. I played exactly according to the charts and becuz I had stats like 39/24 ♦

Originally posted by Sonsuzbalyoz
but you still think the PS extended charts are too tight for FR games right? no misunderstandings there? and what do you think about 6 max charts? please dont say they are too tight too. I played exactly according to the charts and becuz I had stats like 39/24 ♦

I have played a total of 10k max at FR so I know nothing about how the game works there except that i was playing 50/30/22 throughout the 10k because i was so bored with everyone folding. (I started fr nl when my poker adventure started and i hated fr as it was so incredible boring) so when i switched to FL I immediately started 6max and only tried FR as part of a challenge I completed within a very short time as it simply sucks. sorry but FR is so boring. I played 8 tables and i honestly at 3 pm my time sat and actually fell asleep over my keyboard. I timed out with QQ as I literally fell asleep.

Since i have only 10k hands at FR. So I won't comment on how the charts work there as i have no clue.

about 6max. they are definitely too tight and I can only think that being this tight is only more punishing in 6max than FR due to faster blinds. Honestly I hate all of PS articles and charts as they simply suck and make you play a very poor pre flop game in todays games. You will not be able to get all the potential value you can get preflop if you played with more reasonable charts / preflop game that is better than that bs pstrategy has on this site.

over how many hands did you have 39/24? you could easily just have been lucky getting cards. over 20k of my very first hands using this 6max chart I was 18/10/4 -500BB and incredibly frustrated and mad. at 5/Tc 6max. I changed charts and within 10k i won 500BB back and havent had a +300BB downswing since for 161k hands total. my winrate obviously only increased because i got better and better at post flop.