TP oop vs. unknown

I think that you overplayed the AT here. I can't see any worse A that can call on that flop in 3bet pot and especially on that turn. If you had a read on him, good play, otherwise I don't like it that much. I don't know what was your image at the table since he called you with that crap hand.

That’s an interesting hand actually. Yes, at first it seems you overplayed the AT here but let’s go back to the start of the hand — preflop. I don’t think the 4x raise is standard in that spot. It basically says you’ve a premium (JJ+, most likely AK, KK or AA) and you want to get as much money into the pot as soon as possible OR you’ve any two, really, and you’re taking a very nonstandard (loose aggressive) line. First there are two things you’ve to consider: i. your opponent and ii. your image at the table.

Scenario 1 you’re up against an unknown opponent and your opponent knows nothing about you (and your table image), the standard play of a thinking player would be to proceed cautiously and tighten their range to value hands and no bluff catchers. Otf they call you w/ AT+ (optimistically, AQ+ is more likely), I think 88 and 8x are unlikely to both get to the flop (88 doesn’t get the price to set mine) and 8x should fold AND Kx and any weaker hands fold. In conclusion, there are two possible outcomes: i. you empty the clip w/ two bets and a better hand takes your buy-in and ii. your opponent folds a weaker hand otf.

Scenario 2 you’re up against a semi-unknown or known opponent (you know villain is not a regular) and you’ve got a loose table image at the table. Your 4x 3bet preflop is fishy and your opponent puts you on a wide range. Otf they call you w/ any Ax, Kx (not sure about QQ, JJ, TT and other hands) and turn their hands into bluff catchers. That’s where your ATos starts to look good, because you’re more likely bluffing than playing TP+. There are two possible outcomes: i. your opponent proceeds cautiously and thinks your big 3bet preflop is strong rather than weak and folds otf with a weak hand or calls down with a strong hand and beats you. ii. your opponent is either a nonthinking or bad (calling station, maniac, fish —) player, thinks you’re bluffing and calls you down. Good for you.

I think that’s an interesting strategy to look in to but I don’t think it works against a good player. And you need a loose table image. In case of a tight table image, if you do this w/ a strong hand you’ll get no value and if you do this w/ a weak hand, you’ll get a fold otf and win what’s in the pot (and you can loosen your table image as a result) but the strategy is about making your opponent think you’re bluffing and beating a bluff catcher with a mediocre or strong hand.

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Other than that, if it’s a standard play and there is no strategy, read-based play involved, then I agree with adeee3 and think you overplayed your ATos and got lucky you were ahead when the chips went in but eventually still got unlucky otr. I don’t think that’s +EV in the long-run as standard play.

I would wonder why you'd bluff oop v an unknown MP whos range has to be considered tight for now. Seems a bit fancy to me is all.

I agree. You would have a reason to bluff at someone like villain, and even if you do have a reason the ATo is not the right hand to do it.

@steesteestee
4BB open means a tighter range, but not as tight as JJ+, AK. Many poker educational sites promote playing tight ranges and opening for 4BB preflop. Even Confidant is making coachings about that where open from EP is 4BB.

Originally posted by gadget51
I would wonder why you'd bluff oop v an unknown MP whos range has to be considered tight for now. Seems a bit fancy to me is all.

Could you elaborate? I don’t quite follow. Are you saying you’d wonder (if you were villain) why’d Hero bluff in that spot? Because from our POV, we’re not bluffing but we want to make our opponent think we’re bluffing so they’d turn their weaker hands into bluff catchers. Otherwise we overplay our hand and get called by stronger hands and lose.

Originally posted by nitrol@steesteestee
4BB open means a tighter range, but not as tight as JJ+, AK. Many poker educational sites promote playing tight ranges and opening for 4BB preflop. Even Confidant is making coachings about that where open from EP is 4BB.

I was talking about Hero’s 4x 3bet, not MP’s 4BB open. To 4x 3bet a 4BB open OOP you’d need the top of your range in my opinion.

4 bb opening is not something unusual, especially with guys like CO and SB that seem a little bit calling stations (of course we do not know how villain look at them). How do you construct your 3betting range? Do you 3bet as bluff or value?

I would fold preflop. For bluf 3bet I would likely use some suited connectors (I do not mean this is correct, just my opinion).

Fold pre. AT is not a good hand there. If you really play, 4-bet it to try to get the pot before flop.

As played, I could even check flop. We have only 1 street of value versus a solid player here, and if he had called with hands like JTs/9ts, they can't bluff us now.

If you bet flop, bet 1/2 pot. Check turn.

But got to say, villain's hand was... Awesome

Quote: 'Because from our POV, we’re not bluffing but we want to make our opponent think we’re bluffing so they’d turn their weaker hands into bluff catchers. Otherwise we overplay our hand and get called by stronger hands and lose.'

Given ATo v MP 4x raising range, we are bluffing already imo. As for making villain think we are bluffing, how do we know we can do that after 58 hands? How many weaker hands than ours are there in MP's range in this instance and since we 3bet how many will stay in the pot? We already overplayed the hand preflop I think.
Finally, the hand villain showed down reinforces (in my opinion) the principle of strong solid play without the psycho-babble stuff at this limit. We can try to get the guy to call us with weaker holdings and didn't we do well(unknowingly), or we can pretend we are bluffing when we aren't, or we can...and in the end the guy had a pretty hand and wanted to see the flop...that's it really.

I would click fold preflop without a pause here.

Good discussion.

No offense, but this is just horrible poker by the two of you. It might make some sense if you had some very recent deep intense leveling-war going on, but this doesn't seem to be the case.

You got it in good