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TP TK flop push all in, hero call or fold?

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ToddBrunson
Joined: 23.05.2010
PokerStrategist

Post flop easy fold or always enough to call top pair top kicker? Villain played about 600 hands, 36/4 and flop to fold cbet 71. wtsd 36, wonsd 56, 3bet 1.4
Flop as dry as desert, so i do not think he had 7x, why raise all in this board?

Poker Stars, $0.02/$0.05 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 8 Players

SB: $5.17 (103.4 bb)
BB: $3.95 (79 bb)
Hero (UTG+2): $10.18 (203.6 bb)
MP1: $7.35 (147 bb)
MP2: $2.56 (51.2 bb)
MP3: $3.18 (63.6 bb)
CO: $5.12 (102.4 bb)
BTN: $4.93 (98.6 bb)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with A♠ Q♦
Hero raises to $0.15, MP1 folds, MP2 calls $0.15, 5 folds

Flop: ($0.37) 7♣ 7♦ Q♠ (2 players)
Hero bets $0.18, MP2 raises to $2.41 and is all-in, Hero calls $2.23

Turn: ($5.19) 8♠ (2 players, 1 is all-in)
River: ($5.19) A♥ (2 players, 1 is all-in)

Spoiler

Results: $5.19 pot ($0.22 rake)
Final Board: 7♣ 7♦ Q♠ 8♠ A♥
Hero showed A♠ Q♦ and lost (-$2.56 net)
MP2 showed 8♥ 7♥ and won $4.97 ($2.41 net)

Spoiler

wow, nice hand, beautiful play for villain :f_thumbsup: :f_biggrin:


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16 replies
la55i
Joined: 27.01.2013
PokerStrategist

(51.2 bb)
36/4
flop to fold cbet 71
wtsd 36
3bet 1.4

Should we analyze those a bit?
1) villain is clearly a recreational player
2) he clearly seems to be passive at least pre-flop
3) he folds tons OTF, so probably quite weak player too

Flop as dry as desert, so i do not think he had 7x

If flop has 77, it absolutely does not mean that villain can't have 7x hand. Even if you think it is unlikely, we can't exclude all combos. There is always a possibility he will have some 7x hands.

why raise all in this board?

This is a wrong question. We already clearly see that villain is a recreational player. He raises because he has a strong hand, or he raises because he has air and thinks you have air too.

We could also ask you, why bet this flop? And why bet so big? Is it optimal? Probably not but could work at the micros. Then we could ask why villain raises this flop with 7x hand? Is it optima? Probably not but he managed to get your stack.


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zetozinho
Joined: 18.06.2017
PokerStrategist

Typical fish situation imo. That's a 13x time raise to your bet.
There's no way is doing this with air, unless he's on tilt. And he has 71% fold to cbet. So he has something. Could have a 7, we never know. Could have KK or AA, because with this guys we never know.
But he could do it with a queen imo.
Not a easy spot for sure, but I think that after letting the time bank almost runout I'd fold.


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AvritJack
Joined: 28.12.2007
Elite Grinder

Come on guys. Is that really tough spot?
For me at least easy call. I'm happy that he is doing this when I hit tptk.
50bb...


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la55i
Joined: 27.01.2013
PokerStrategist

What makes it difficult is PFR of 4 and 3bet of less than 2 over 600 hands + super high fold to cbet.

I think we could confidently say that villain is weak passive? Those kind of guys don't tend to overplay mid strength hands. On this board he can't have good draws to bluff either.


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AvritJack
Joined: 28.12.2007
Elite Grinder

You're right. Now it's getting more complicated. I put myself instead hero but I didn't consider statistics. Maybe because I don't have reliable samples on my opponents and not using them often.


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ToddBrunson Topic starter
ToddBrunson
Joined: 23.05.2010
PokerStrategist

This range i have got 48%, close but enough to call. He is not only do the strong hand, i think almost every pairs do this move, i saw lot of similar situation this players. Maybe coin flip but i do not imagine that his range i would not be about 50% chance to win. This board even villain lot of fold cbet i thinked he push all in lot of weaker pair or AK.

22+,AQs,A7s,KQs,K7s,QTs+,Q7s,J7s,T7s,97s,87s,72s+,AQo,A7o,KQo,K7o,QJo,Q7o,J7o,T7o,97o,87o,75o+


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la55i
Joined: 27.01.2013
PokerStrategist

But isn't that raise shove OTF quite aggressive move? On this kind of boards villains like to fold a lot, and this guy looks like he folds way too much.
This guy has raised 4% preflop, does he really raise flops more aggressively?

You have 600 hands on him so you could check his flop raise %.


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Mozzek
Joined: 16.07.2016
PokerStrategist

Too low sample to confidently rely on ftcbet. Fish do this with pocket pairs (effectively 2p) and also weaker queens. No way im folsing q with A as a kicker. Maybe with lower kicker you could convince me. Anyway, this spot isnt what you should focus on, call or fold its kinda whatever, doesnt affect your ultimate wr that much.


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Coach
LemOn36
Joined: 07.02.2009
Elite Grinder
Coach
LemOn36
Joined: 07.02.2009
Elite Grinder

stats are useless here
you need to check specific hands because this can easily be Qx from him
And you can do that just with H2N, no point in fishing for one number that won't even let you decide


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ToddBrunson Topic starter
ToddBrunson
Joined: 23.05.2010
PokerStrategist

I better play when i have not got hud, maybe stats nothing use for me. I lose and lose and lose when i have got hud.


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la55i
Joined: 27.01.2013
PokerStrategist

Originally posted by Mozzek
Too low sample to confidently rely on ftcbet.

Heh, I'm usually the guy who is shouting about too small sample sizes :f_biggrin: I do agree with you that for many postflop stats 600 hands is still quite small. However, if the ftcbet is 71 over 600 hands and the guys preflop stats look like that, I would be pretty confident that villain is a weak recreational who is probably folding way too much OTF.


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Mozzek
Joined: 16.07.2016
PokerStrategist

I agree and know where u coming from, but this is kinda specific texture imo so i would necessarily uae it.


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la55i
Joined: 27.01.2013
PokerStrategist

That is true also. I kinda used the stats to conclude that villain probably is on the weak and passive side, so raising might not be a common play for him.


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OrigamiPoker
Joined: 27.10.2018
Poker Player

Another consideration that can be very useful with that kind of sample size is why is villain playing 51bb.Has villain been playing the whole session short stacked or have they just lost a decent sized pot.And is villain already down multiple buy ins for the session.It can certainly change the decision from an easy call to a tight lay down.If after 600 hands this is the first aggressive move from a very passive player I can find a pretty tight fold even for 51bb.If villains been having a losing session they can just be chip dumping the last of their chips.Also some recreational players tend to play cash games similar to a tournament and rebuy to 100bb after the previous buy in has gone.So they might value hands differently as the stack gets shorter and shorter.At 50bb any Qx might be value for them where as at 80/90bb it may not be.Someone just playing a short stack on auto top up isn't going to be making those kind of value adjustments


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AvritJack
Joined: 28.12.2007
Elite Grinder

Im using this excuse all the time to call them xD


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