Onmybike's edge 1000$ 9 max 4 way

ok well here are our options. Very important here that we are OOP, so we have a disadvantage vs a good player if we take it to a flop.

1. shove
2. fold
3. 3bet small
4. flat

not folding.

3bet small: Has problems because of the odds you get when facing a 4bet and what a small 3bet will do to the BTN 4bet range and flat range.

flat: interesting option, might be better than shoving vs some BTN range. we need more specific information on how he plays post-flop, any meta, and what exactly his raising range here + what his r/c range is vs a 3bet shove.

Im very interested in seeing the math you have. To me, shove seems like the best option, but please feel free to convince me otherwise!

you can use this strategy also by 6 max hyper turbo's. (the edge there is small and get a great boost with this i think.)
i am just half year 18 and i am bussy with poker more then 60 hours a weak now and i want to be the best. (And ofcourse you hear that so much from people who not want to work for it). I have look to al good vids en some seen more times i can not really learn alot from cheap coaching anymore and have not enough BR right now for exspensive coaching.
I thought maybe we can make some deal i give you this edge and when i can prove that it is without doubt more +EV then a push. (and i think that there is is big change that you wil going to do this in your one games). Your learn me your skills.
I think that about 2 years every high limit reg (sgn/mtt)is using this and maybe you can be the first.
And ofcourse when you see why it is not more +EV then a shove it is also ok and you do not give me any coaching.
I see only positive points for you or it is working and you can give your winrate a boost or it is not working and you do not give me coaching or anything.

I'm not going to negotiate free coaching, its not going to happen. But, if you want some more advice about anything or you have more questions about your calculations I would gladly to continue conversing with you in this thread or on skype (pm me for skype details).

i posted also in my blog with calculations.
hero has to raise to 5999. that is more +EV then pushen.
I was hoping that anyone who made video about FGS had find this.

yeh this isnt new.

it actually doesnt make a difference as the big stack whether you shove. it makes a difference when you are the short stack and you have another short stack behind who has to decide to put his chips at risk while you still have a small amount behind and can still technically fold.

any calculations you make on this will be flawed however, because ICM breaks down at extreme micro-stacks. Logically it is a good play to put some more pressure on short stacks.

a better stack set-up for doing this is

CO 6000 (fold)
BTN 6000 (MR)
SB 3000 (raise to 2888)
BB 3000

the reason why this does not work as the big stack is because it does not effect the short stack equity whether you raise to 5999 or 6000 because they are AI for both amounts.

Originally posted by lessthanthreee
yeh this isnt new.

it actually doesnt make a difference as the big stack whether you shove. it makes a difference when you are the short stack and you have another short stack behind who has to decide to put his chips at risk while you still have a small amount behind and can still technically fold.

any calculations you make on this will be flawed however, because ICM breaks down at extreme micro-stacks. Logically it is a good play to put some more pressure on short stacks.

a better stack set-up for doing this is

CO 6000 (fold)
BTN 6000 (MR)
SB 3000 (raise to 2888)
BB 3000

the reason why this does not work as the big stack is because it does not effect the short stack equity whether you raise to 5999 or 6000 because they are AI for both amounts.

that is not what i mean. You do not understand my idea i guess.

the situation of hero after raising and check to river.
hero wins after push (what is not max EV)

hero wins after raise to 5999 and check to river:

you see that it is better to have a guy with 1 there. And for the BU in the original hand it also better when hero has 1 because he can push ATC. this is the mathematical balance.

EDIT: sorry for the link i can not post the image but you can klick on the link to see it.

this is wrong because the BTN never has ATC when the SB has 1 chip.

the BTN already is limited to his open raising range.

your EV gained in the SB will not differ when raising to 5999 or 6000.

every scenario you have the same logical outcome.

1. BB folds BTN folds
2. BB folds BTN calls (BTN puts you AI on flop or AI pre-flop)
3. BB calls BTN folds
4. BB calls BTN calls (BTN puts you AI on flop or AI pre-flop)

these outcomes are exactly the same whether you raise to 5999 or 6000.

What you are doing by making that calculation is creating a completely different ICM situation (of course you will get different EVs).

your argument is this:
1. BTN raises , you estimate his raising range at 25%.
2. you decide to raise to 5999 rather than 6000.
3. the BTN magically now has 43o in his range and has to go all-in.
4. you have created more EV because now you are reshoving against a ATC range and not his 25% open.

you can see why this isnt correct yes?

It looks like you are trying to create an FGS situation which does not apply to your original problem. (you were trying to find out if raising to 5999 or 6000 changes the EV). I'm telling you it doesnt matter, and logically that makes sense. It making non-AI raises only changes the EV when you can manipulate your opponent's call/fold ranges, IE. being the short stack with a chance of folding if your direct opponent is AI before you.

sorry to burst your bubble, but the math you did isnt correct.

in fact, nash ranges calculate EV of going all-in or folding, and not of reshoving. so it looks like there are some more errors.

if you want to calculate the EV of reshoving you have to use SnG wizard or do the calculations manually using the BTN open raising range + BB overcall range + BTN over-overcall range + BTN raise/fold and raise/call ranges.

then you calculate the EV of raising to 5999 with tehse scenarios and you will find out there is no difference in this situation because all ranges I mentioned are exactly the same. The only way you can gain more EV out of raising to 5999 is if you think this will make the BTN or BB fold more hands than making it 6000. (logically this isnt the case)

i really appreciate your time that you spend with it but you do not get it what i really mean i will make sense in my next post with example. (and math that i make in my bolg)

this is wrong because the BTN never has ATC when the SB has 1 chip.

EDIT: you do not look good (or maybe i say it wrong) that 2 links are for the next hand 1 is when you raise to 5999 and the other when you push (and bust 1 guy). you can see whta it is better to let the guy with 1 stick around.

?

ok can you explain it further. because nothing you have shown me makes sense so far (it is not correct).

can you just copy paste the math you have in here.

Originally posted by lessthanthreee
?

ok can you explain it further. because nothing you have shown me makes sense so far (it is not correct).

can you just copy paste the math you have in here.

it is correct but you dn't see my point

9max pay out 50/30/20

CO 3500
BU 6000
SB 6000
BB 3500

Blinds 150/300 (no antes) (Blinds not posted yet)

Hero is SB

Hero has AQs

CO fold, BU raise to 600 hero ?

Hero moet hier naar 5999 raisen en ik zal jullie uitleggen waarom.
Eerst even kort waarom het hier niet maxEV is om allin te gaan met AA voor villian. (dus met 1 te reraisen) Dit is om 2 redenen
1.Als hij de SB zou buste in deze hand (wat bij een push kan) dan komt villian direct in de BB wat hem op langere termijn $$ kost.
2. Door de SB (lees hero) er in te laten met 1 kan hij de volgende hand op de CO ATC pushen omdat de andere 2 spelers dan vrijwel niks kunnen callen. (dit is het zelfde principe waar hero mee werkt dus daar kom ik nog op terug)
Wat het verloop van de hand dus zal zijn (ook al heeft iemand nuts op de river)=
beiden spelers houden 1 over en ze spelen op elke streat check/call dus
flop:check, check turn: check,check river: check, check.

nu waar het om draait en dat is hero.
welke situatie onstaat er als hero wint met een push:

en welke situatie onstaat als hero wint met een raise na 5999 en check t/m river:

Zoals jullie rechtsonder bij BU wel zien bij EQpost% dat die met mijn idee veel hoger ligt dan met het standaard push. (dit is ook vrij logies als je snapt hoe tight de SB en BB moeten zijn op de bubble met iemand met 1 er nog in).
Pushen is hier dus absoluut niet MAXEV .voor zowel hero als villian die raise naar 600 is het beter de verliezer van de hand 1 over houd dus lijkt me dit ook het wiskundige evenwicht en dus niet een push.
Ik heb niks aan de ranges veranderd maar ik denk dat in het voorbeeld met nog een speler die 1 heeft veel tighter moet als ik die persoon zou zijn zou ik denk alleen kk+ callen (omdat er een kans is bij folden dat iemand achter je bust). Nu lijkt het alsof dit alleen kan als je 2 gelijke stacks hebt maar dat is absoluut niet zo heb dit voorbeeld alleen gebruikt om dat het nu in 2 kanten werkt maar als 1 iemand meer heeft is het nog nooit voordelig om zijn toernooi leven op het spel te zetten door 1 extra te investeren in de pot.

ok i will explain it simple and clear now with an example.

9max pay out 50/30/20

CO 3500
BU 6000
SB 6000
BB 3500

Blinds 150/300 (no antes) (Blinds not posted yet)

Hero is SB

Hero has AQs

CO fold, BU raise to 600 hero ?

hero raise to 5999.
villian can do 3 think
1. fold (same result as a push)
2. call (here is the point)
3. reraise 1

do you understand that it is better to not reraise 1 because of 2 thing:
1. you are allin and that 1 had more valeu when it it not in the pot.
2. because you go allin with no FE and can bust HERO (what is bad)
busten hero (for villian on the BU) is not as good as let him stay in the game because when villian wil win the and he is in really good shape the nect hand and can push any two on the CO! (you make more $$ because you have more FE on SB and BB next and-- villians look of the hand)

for example villian get dealt AA he call 5999
Flop: AA3
check, check
turn: AA38
check check
river AA38k
check check

ok ofcourse you will say: why are you not allin with 1 to bust HERO. smart villian see because I use him in the next hand to win more chips because i go to shove ATC and pik up the blinds close to always. (When hero stay in the game with 1)

BUT the importent point why it is bad to go allin when you are villian: when HERO (read SB) bust he will be the BB because the deal button can not go to the SB!! Do you understand this part? it is al about the next hand and the edge you get there!

ok next post will be look from hero eye why it is way better to keep 1 behind and check down t river.

i see where you go wrong i guess. you think that when you raise to 5999 it wil be always allin preflop or postflop BUT that is the whole point. When you have 2 good players that is not going to happen because both want that the other guy stick around with 1 chip left because then the winner can shove very profitable ATC!

EDIT: o and you think that always he wil shove? villian will cal the raise from Hero with his callingrange when hero will push)

there can be 2 situations next hand when both players play it as much profitable as possible.

1. hero winst and villian has 1 left

playewholoseCO 1
herowinBU 12299
playerSB 3200 (3500-BB from hand before)
playerBB 3500

2.hero lose and villian wins (hero has 1 chip left)

playerwhowinCO 12299
heroloseBU 1
playerSB 3200 (3500-BB from hand before)
playerBB 3500

do you understand that in both cases it is better for the winner of the hand that in the next hand there i a guy with 1 on the bubble? (when you understand this you are really close to understand my point)

hope you will understand what i mean i can give much more information about spots like this. (also inother formats like 6-max hyper)

you are trying to calculate whether it is better for the SB to raise to 5999.

you then are assuming that the BTN will decide to check it down for 1 chip and lose the hand and have 1 chip in the CO next hand. this is technically possible, but not likely in reality. Therefore, any future gains you calculate for the next hand will not exist because that situation is extremely unlikely. I guarantee you no one will check it down for 1 chip on the BTN so your plan is flawed.

I can see where you think there is an FGS edge because if you raise to 5999 and the BTN calls and checks it down and loses the next hand will be this.

CO 1
BTN 1649
SB 3200
BB 3500

so if the CO shoves here you can shove ATC and the blinds cant call.

But in reality this scenario will NEVER happen, because no one is going to check it down IP in the previous hand vs your SB non AI raise.

you are also forgetting that there is a LOT of value in finishing the bubble knocking out your 1 chip opponent with quad aces (in your example).

this is just never going to be an FGS edge you can gain in a real life practical example.

You are over-estimating the FGS value of having a 1 chip stack next hand. Comparatively there is more value in finishing the bubble for the winner of the hand and not prolonging the bubble.

Originally posted by lessthanthreee
you are trying to calculate whether it is better for the SB to raise to 5999.

you then are assuming that the BTN will decide to check it down for 1 chip and lose the hand and have 1 chip in the CO next hand. this is technically possible, but not likely in reality. Therefore, any future gains you calculate for the next hand will not exist because that situation is extremely unlikely. I guarantee you no one will check it down for 1 chip on the BTN so your plan is flawed.

I can see where you think there is an FGS edge because if you raise to 5999 and the BTN calls and checks it down and loses the next hand will be this.

CO 1
BTN 1649
SB 3200
BB 3500

so if the CO shoves here you can shove ATC and the blinds cant call.

But in reality this scenario will NEVER happen, because no one is going to check it down IP in the previous hand vs your SB non AI raise.

YES ok now we are really far to get my point ♦.
why it is never going to happen when it is better for hero as for villian to play on every streat check/call ??