Originally posted by lessthanthreee
your mathematical justification is wrong. your 2 screen shots are not proving your hypothesis.the EVs are in a vacuum
the EVs are in a vacuum
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those 2 hands are completely different, seperate and non-connected calculations which do not show any FGS nor do they prove your hypothesis.
these 2hans coming out of the real hand. 1 is when push and win and the other is raisen 5999 and check down to river and win.
Originally posted by onmybike
Originally posted by Zaonce
But if you have say AQ and you completely miss, wouldnt you consider folding this 1 chip? if you think of it with 2 chips instead of one you have to make 1 less double up to get back in shape, that, you will understand, its a great advantage long runyou are never going to fold because a good player will never bet on flop turn or river!
Ok so i agree with you that a good player will never bet the remaining 1 chip ; but let's just now thing if we can exctract some more value from a bad player because he will not be familiar with pot odds and FGS meaning we may have some folds postflop, even if once in a while he gets disconnected its still a possibility. So wouldnt it be better to bet 1? maybe timebanking and bet? or think for 3 streets to get to next blind level and when we shove we get more chips next hand?
Im done with this thread, I have explained why this is not correct multiple times. Your theory makes no sense logically, mathematically or practically.
If you think I'm wrong, then use your edge and expoit the games. I wish you the best of luck in your SnG career, I enjoyed the debate.
LT3
Originally posted by Zaonce
Originally posted by onmybike
Originally posted by Zaonce
But if you have say AQ and you completely miss, wouldnt you consider folding this 1 chip? if you think of it with 2 chips instead of one you have to make 1 less double up to get back in shape, that, you will understand, its a great advantage long runyou are never going to fold because a good player will never bet on flop turn or river!
Ok so i agree with you that a good player will never bet the remaining 1 chip ; but let's just now thing if we can exctract some more value from a bad player because he will not be familiar with pot odds and FGS meaning we may have some folds postflop, even if once in a while he gets disconnected its still a possibility. So wouldnt it be better to bet 1? maybe timebanking and bet? or think for 3 streets to get to next blind level and when we shove we get more chips next hand?
oknice that you understand what i mean i. I when i was SB i never bet no mather what. But my point is that my way is better then a push. When villian go allin (for1) on the turn it is the same as a push. (but he do not play it correctly then)
EDIT: yes you have good idea to make more money then pushing. There is still so much edge in poker to make $$ if you look a little bit better.
Originally posted by lessthanthreee
Im done with this thread, I have explained why this is not correct multiple times. Your theory makes no sense logically, mathematically or practically.If you think I'm wrong, then use your edge and expoit the games. I wish you the best of luck in your SnG career, I enjoyed the debate.
LT3
ok 
can you do please last thing for my and anser my last question from the 2 situations with you prefer? (or in with situation do you think you make the most money when you are hero?)
EDIT: thx for your time i will use it in my own game (i play 45mans at the moment and there are more bubbles it is very useful there)
Originally posted by onmybike
ok let see you really think at this:BU (hero) 12300
SB 3200
BB 3000is better for hero then:
CO 1
BU (hero) 12299
SB 3200
BB 3000with situation wil you prefer? 1ste or second.
I am sure that hero is making in the long term more money in situation 2 then in situation 1. Do you agree with that?
i gave this a little more thought and I can see the mutual benefits for both players checking it down.
- the loser will still be in the tournament and possibly get lucky next hand if a mid-stack busts.
- the winner will be able to abuse for 1 hand.
I do, however, think you have not attempted to calculate the value of cashing and compare that to the value of abusing for 1 hand. This is practically impossible to calculate accurately, so this will never be proven/dis-proven.
My conclusion is still the same as it was in my original reply, the $EV difference is non existent between the two methods.
Originally posted by lessthanthreee
i gave this a little more thought and I can see the mutual benefits for both players checking it down.- the loser will still be in the tournament and possibly get lucky next hand if a mid-stack busts.
- the winner will be able to abuse for 1 hand.
I do, however, think you have not attempted to calculate the value of cashing and compare that to the value of abusing for 1 hand. This is practically impossible to calculate accurately, so this will never be proven/dis-proven.
My conclusion is still the same as it was in my original reply, the $EV difference is non existent between the two methods.
thx, for your reaction. I agree with you that it will be really difficult to calculate the exact different between pushen and raisen to 5999 and check it down. But you do not have to be a genius to see that the 5999 way you pick up the next hand around 1,2bb (maybe even more because the blinds can only call kk+ ). And it is not only the next hand where you get an advantage but also the hand after that hand because:
1. the player with 1 chip wil bust (then your stack has more valeu then the stack when you push the first hand .
2. or the player with 1 fold or survive (and will have 4 chips). then he wil be on the BB and you can push any two again on the CO because the SB can not cal alot.
But in the second way it is even better because when you bust the player with 1 in the 3 hand (what is 50/50 because we push ATC en he is already call) then we passt the BB and are the BU again!.
Originally posted by onmybike
But you do not have to be a genius to see that the 5999 way you pick up the next hand around 1,2bb (maybe even more because the blinds can only call kk+ ).
this is only the case if the CO folds next hand. if the CO calls his 1 chip AI the SB and BB overcall ranges are not AA+.
when the short stack is AI next hand the other stacks can call wide because they are no longer at risk of bubbling.
You only gain FGS if the CO folds his 1 chip next hand then you can push ATC and the blinds can only call AA.
Originally posted by lessthanthreee
Originally posted by onmybike
But you do not have to be a genius to see that the 5999 way you pick up the next hand around 1,2bb (maybe even more because the blinds can only call kk+ ).this is only the case if the CO folds next hand. if the CO calls his 1 chip AI the SB and BB overcall ranges are not AA+.
when the short stack is AI next hand the other stacks can call wide because they are no longer at risk of bubbling.
You only gain FGS if the CO folds his 1 chip next hand then you can push ATC and the blinds can only call AA.
that is not true i have did calculation on that any even if the CO calls his 1 hero can stil make a very profitabel ATC push and SB and BB can stil only call lesser then 3% because there is a change that Co wins the main pot and hero wins the side pot and the SB or BB will bubble.
Originally posted by onmybike
Originally posted by lessthanthreee
Originally posted by onmybike
But you do not have to be a genius to see that the 5999 way you pick up the next hand around 1,2bb (maybe even more because the blinds can only call kk+ ).this is only the case if the CO folds next hand. if the CO calls his 1 chip AI the SB and BB overcall ranges are not AA+.
when the short stack is AI next hand the other stacks can call wide because they are no longer at risk of bubbling.
You only gain FGS if the CO folds his 1 chip next hand then you can push ATC and the blinds can only call AA.
that is not true i have did calculation on that any even if the CO calls his 1 hero can stil make a very profitabel ATC push and SB and BB can stil only call lesser then 3% because there is a change that Co wins the main pot and hero wins the side pot and the SB or BB will bubble.
EDIT: 3% is not wide! when you have 10bb imo
Originally posted by lessthanthreee
ill leave this thread open if anyone else wants to add more discussion.
thx, hope there will be other players/coaches/handjugdes who give this a try to look and give there opion about it.
I still think that it is really working (and al lot of poeple in the netherlands community to).
I have only heard 2 negative thing about it where i have to agree:
1. when everybody go to use this strategy it wil not give your winrate a boost ( that is ofcourse with every edge. But fish and some subborn regs will not give this a try and you will have an edge on them.)
2. when you play more then 20+table (most of the time microgames) it cost maybe to much time to put in the right nummer.
