Discussion Thread: The Basics

Quiz 'Odds and Outs'

QUESTION 11:
Could you correctly call your draw in this example? (5 4 on Q 7 6 :heart:, Hero is facing a $2 bet into a $8 pot.)

The answer that is somehow deemed correct is 'Call and fold are of the same value.' (Not even 'about the same' like in the other questions, but 'exactly the same', which is almost never true; and then, what 'about' means is a question), whereas obviously the odds of hitting the straight are 39:8, or 4.875:1 (even better in a real setup because a realistic range contains one of our outs rarer than a random hand) - better than 5:1. And you then say in the answer description 'So you have exactly the needed odds, which means in the long run you will neither win nor lose.'

I mean, if you formulated the answer as 'of about the same value', or specified what the rake structure is, I would have thought twice before choosing the 'profitable call' option. But as is, it's a 'what Pokerstrategy is thinking about' game.

Hey tonypmm,

The lesson in question is very basic and targeted at beginners or those who are new to poker math. The odds for 8 outs is rounded to 5:1 in the lesson and the same value is used in the quiz.

You are correct that the exact odds aren't 5:1 but a little bit better (if there's no rake like you mentioned). Other things that aren't covered in this lesson but have an impact on the profitability of the call are implied odds, possible dead outs (hearts), reverse implied odds and hero being out of position (affects implied odds).

Great videos. I am really hoping i will learn all the stuff related to poker. I plan to play it seriously so there is a long journey in front of me ♦.

Hey Brucelats,

Why don't you take a few moments to Introduce yourself! to us?

Cheers

Laz

4:1 means out of 5 tries in he long run, you will miss your objective
4 times and you will make your objective 1 time. You add he odds number together like 3:1 equals 4 . So you will miss 3times and make it
1 time. Just remember 50% does no mean every other time, nor which
comes next, we are speaking long term not short term...:welcome:

Originally posted by hud400
4:1 means out of 5 tries in he long run, you will miss your objective
4 times and you will make your objective 1 time. You add he odds number together like 3:1 equals 4 . So you will miss 3times and make it
1 time. Just remember 50% does no mean every other time, nor which
comes next, we are speaking long term not short term...:welcome:

Nice explained ♦

I have a question regarding Q16 of Odds and Outs
Isn't a pair stronger than high card?
Hero has a pair 3♣:3♥: but after show down, Villain can beat me with his Q♦:?

QUESTION 16:
How many cards will help your opponent on the river?

Board K♥:T♠:T♣:2♣:
Villain Q♦:4♦:
Hero 3♣:3♥:

Your answer: 8 (0 Points)
You are ahead in this situation, but there are still nine cards that help the villain. Besides the three fours and the three queens, also every king is helpful for villain. This would mean there would be two pairs on the board and the kicker would decide. He would beat your 3 with his Q.

Hi Karla9516,

Remember that you always form full poker hands consisting of five cards in this game. Take a look at the situation as it is on the turn:

Board K♥: T♠: T♣: 2♣:
Villain Q♦: 4♦:
Hero 3♣: 3♥:

Right now, the poker hand that is made using your hole cards and the board would be K♥: T♠: T♣: 3♣: 3♥:, a two pair tens and threes with a king as the kicker. Your opponent only has a pair of tens, his hand would be K♥: T♠: T♣: Q♦: 4♦:, so you're clearly ahead right now.

However, imagine the river would be K♠:. The situation would now look like this:

Board K♥: T♠: T♣: 2♣: K♠:
Villain Q♦: 4♦:
Hero 3♣: 3♥:

Now there's a better two pair on the board, so you could only use one of your threes as a kicker. Your hand would now be K♥: T♠: T♣: 3♣: K♠:. Your opponent, on the other hand, could use his queen as the kicker, resulting in K♥: T♠: T♣: Q♦: K♠:, which would beat your hand.

Does that make sense to you?

Yes! So many new things are entering my head, and sometimes I can't organize them clearly as a beginner. Thanks!

I don't really understand how the odds change after the turn...

Originally posted by zenule
I don't really understand how the odds change after the turn...

The biggest reason why the odds changes on turn compared to the flop is that there is only 1 card that can improve you’re hand. That will change the odds of winning the hand a lot.
Lets say we are going all-inn with AsKs and we are up against a set of QQ. The situation looks like this:
Board: Q♠J♠9♥
Equity Win Draw
SB 33.84% 33.84% 0.00% { AsKs }
BB 66.16% 66.16% 0.00% { QhQc }

Now there are still the turn and river that can give you the winning hand.
If you going all-inn with the same hand on the turn and you didn’t improve the situation looks like this:
Board: Q♠J♠9♥ 2♣
Equity Win Draw
SB 22.73% 22.73% 0.00% { AsKs }
BB 77.27% 77.27% 0.00% { QhQc }

Now you lose a lot of equity, because now you have only the river card that gives you the winning hand. That’s 10 of the 44 unknown cards and that’s 22,73%

Hopefully this helps a little bit, but if you have more questions don’t hesitate to ask them.

Best regards,
SDK1987

loving all the articles on this website

Thanks for the lessons. They really helped me to improve my knowledge and skills.

Can someone explain Question 14 to me? How does his all-in shove change my odds exactly?

I'm really confused....I mean, I understand the ratios & why the pot odds need to be bigger than your odds to make a profitable hand. But it's working out the ratios that I'm stuck on. Is there a simple calculation that can be used to work out the ratios (ie 4:1 or 22:1)? How do you work this stuff out quickly, in the middle of a hand? I'm sitting here trying to work it out, but there's no way I could come up with the answer in the time it takes to play your hand....does this make sense?

I really like the lessons so far. In the Ranges & Equity (4): Equity: Final Calls quiz...

I am assuming we can only calculate our equity on questions 5,6 by using a program like equilab?

And on Question 5, how can I add just the spades for the busted flush draw, and not every suit?

Hi RockRoll458,

In Question 5, you can calculate your equity by counting the combos, as it is described in the solution. Your opponent has 36 value and 11 bluff combos, for a total number of 47 combos in his range. 11 out of 47 would roughly equal 23%, which is below the required 29% equity (which you can get by calculating your pot odds).

For situations like in Question 6, I believe the only realistic way to accurately calculate your equity would be using a tool like Equilab. It should be noted, though, that it is very beneficial for you as a player to develop a "feel" for these numbers, so you can get an intuitive understanding of your equity when you're at the tables and don't have time to use these tools.

Incidentally, you can select combos of a certain suit (like spades, in this case) in Equilab by clicking one of the suit symbols in the top left corner of the Hand-Range-Selection window, as shown here:

Originally posted by Harrier88

In Question 5, you can calculate your equity by counting the combos, as it is described in the solution. Your opponent has 36 value and 11 bluff combos, for a total number of 47 combos in his range. 11 out of 47 would roughly equal 23%,

Yes this answers my question exactly. Because all of the community cards are out we can get a quick, accurate answer (unlike Question 6 where no community cards are out)?

Originally posted by Harrier88

Incidentally, you can select combos of a certain suit (like spades, in this case) in Equilab by clicking one of the suit symbols in the top left corner of the Hand-Range-Selection window, as shown here:

Still not finding this. Is it available in the free version of equilab?

Originally posted by Harrier88

It should be noted, though, that it is very beneficial for you as a player to develop a "feel" for these numbers, so you can get an intuitive understanding of your equity when you're at the tables and don't have time to use these tools.

I was playing with the equity trainer under the tool tab in Equilab a few weeks ago. Is this one way of getting better at recognizing situations?

Originally posted by RockRoll458
Still not finding this. Is it available in the free version of equilab?

Yes, this is from the free version, as it is found here. This one also doesn't have the Equity Trainer you mentioned. Could it be that your using "Power Equilab" instead?

Believe it is the same one in your link. Wish I knew how to add a saved screenshot to the post