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Is there a sixth sense needed to play great poker?!

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Originally posted by Meda1985

@Elroch
I like slow-players because they tend to suck out, and they are usually "donks" that will play their top-pair till the end. This hand is an example. Without that ace on the flop I wouldn't have read his hand (of course I thought it was just pair), but he would have gone all the way if he only had that pair (with no ace on the board). You know what I'm talking about?

Well, generally slowplaying usually refers to when someone has an extremely strong hand and plays it without much aggression, hoping the opponent will be aggressive with a weaker hand or over-aggressive with a much weaker one (as in your hand). It can be ineffective when the opponent plays without much (or any) aggression and catches a better hand later, not when the opponent inflates a pot with a much worse hand and finally catches a card sometimes. The situation when the opponent has top pair is not much different to the situation when he had top set (you only have 2 more outs). Eg, if he has AKo, you have 14% on the flop and 23% on the turn. Same conclusion applies - your line of play loses money on average unless the opponent folds his top pair.


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ok man listen
how to beat the micros:
1.never ever bluff(unless you are an amazing hand reader, so an amazing bluffer, which u are not)
2.when the flush hits(or whatever card u are scared of) and he shoves(or bets big ) insta fold(yeah some of the time u will fold the better hand but most of the time u will go broke)
3.when a passive fish raises(most of the time minraises) call only if u have close to the nuts(better yet when u have the nuts)
4.value bet a lot (but please not on fourth pair because he is a cs and u expect him to call on bottom pair- MOST OF THE TIME HE WON'T HAVE BOTTOM PAIR-------- i saw these leak a thousand times)

with those 4 things and ABC poker u will crush the micros no problem so start paying attention to them


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Meda1985 Topic starter
Meda1985
Joined: 26.01.2011
PokerStrategist

@blackopps888
I will look for that book! :)

@Elroch
I get what you mean. But I was checking him for that ace, when I found out that he has one it was to late for both of us... OK, he sucked out at the end, BUT, it was HIS FAULT I got lucky on the river, he allowed me to do whatever I wanted to, ONLY ONE re-raise would've got me out of there!


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Meda1985 Topic starter
Meda1985
Joined: 26.01.2011
PokerStrategist

@Sandwind
Thanks mate. Even though everybody here was being cooperative and had good tips, this one is most thorough. For example, If I don't know the player at all when he goes all-in and I don't have a monster (for that board) I usually fold, but I was thinking that I was wrong, since they tend to try "cheap" bluffs a lot. But you tell me that more often they do that WITH nuts. That is the best advice I've got so far, since I didn't call a lot of those bets to know what a Hell are they doing when they go all-in for no apparent reason. It happens, A LOT.
The rest three more-less I've got the hang of.
So, boring old "kind of tight" poker in micros? I don't mind, that's why I asked!


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Yes, I'm quite some newb, so I just try to get some of the concepts down...what does he mean with

(but please not on fourth pair because he is a cs and u expect him to call on bottom pair- MOST OF THE TIME HE WON'T HAVE BOTTOM PAIR-------- i saw these leak a thousand times)

everything else is clear, I just don't get this part of the one post?
Many thanks ahead...


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Meda1985 Topic starter
Meda1985
Joined: 26.01.2011
PokerStrategist

I think what he was trying to say is that you don't c-bet unless you have at least mid-pair. Not sure... but I get his grip.


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Oh yeah, that was a refreshing hint...I read the post again and I think I got it, thanks man


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blackops888
Joined: 25.04.2010
PokerStrategist

Originally posted by Elefantibus
Yes, I'm quite some newb, so I just try to get some of the concepts down...what does he mean with

(but please not on fourth pair because he is a cs and u expect him to call on bottom pair- MOST OF THE TIME HE WON'T HAVE BOTTOM PAIR-------- i saw these leak a thousand times)

everything else is clear, I just don't get this part of the one post?
Many thanks ahead...

He said that in spite that you judge the opponent as a calling station who's capable of calling down until the river with anything but bottom pair, he won't have just bottom pair with enough frequency to justify your aggression with a weak holding such as 4th pair, for example.

Summarized: The guy is a donk calling station, but you don't need to underestimate him all that much when it comes to being aggro with such a weak holding.


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Meda1985 Topic starter
Meda1985
Joined: 26.01.2011
PokerStrategist

In more words, yes. :)


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thanks blackops888...appreciate it :)


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blackops888
Joined: 25.04.2010
PokerStrategist

Originally posted by Sandwind
ok man listen
how to beat the micros:
1.never ever bluff(unless you are an amazing hand reader, so an amazing bluffer, which u are not)
2.when the flush hits(or whatever card u are scared of) and he shoves(or bets big ) insta fold(yeah some of the time u will fold the better hand but most of the time u will go broke)
3.when a passive fish raises(most of the time minraises) call only if u have close to the nuts(better yet when u have the nuts)
4.value bet a lot (but please not on fourth pair because he is a cs and u expect him to call on bottom pair- MOST OF THE TIME HE WON'T HAVE BOTTOM PAIR-------- i saw these leak a thousand times)

with those 4 things and ABC poker u will crush the micros no problem so start paying attention to them

I could re-write some topics in a more flexible way...

1. Do not bluff unknown players unless you can do that cheaply (you can c-bet a dry flop being the pre-flop aggressor when HU against an unknown with the intention of bet/folding if you face a lot of resistance; in the same way you can bluff raise a regular's c-bet on a dry flop when you have played 1000 hands with him and knows he c-bets 70% of the time. When the situation becomes different, just don't bluff at all)

2. Try not to draw to anything but the 1st or 2nd nut flush in NLHE or the pure nut flush in PLO (when you are playing NLHE, hit a Q-high flush and face aggression you are going to be in a tough spot, especially OOP, in relation to that in which you would be when holding the K or A-high flush. You can simply avoid this by not drawing at all to weak flushes)

3. When a loose-passive raises/min-raises, call or re-raise only if you have the nuts or close to it, or have a decent draw that gets the right odds for a call (self-explanatory)

4. Value bet a lot (but be inclined to keep the pot as small as possible if you hold anything less than top pair and good kicker).


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Meda1985 Topic starter
Meda1985
Joined: 26.01.2011
PokerStrategist

Now, there's a great post that explains a lot. Probably, the best so far! ;)


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blackops888
Joined: 25.04.2010
PokerStrategist

I think we could actually delineate a "core strategy" for the micros sometime. I never forgot when a black member here in PS said something like this in an interview at another site... That you must be flexible in the way you approach to the game, that you must never think that you have the solution for the game already figured out and play as if you were a poker bot, but you must have some kind of CORE to which you can fall back to.

When he said that I had a lot of stuff running through my mind. I noticed that there was some kind of hidden secret in there.

This core strategy is actually what we've been trying to put here in this thread through so many posts. This strategy is already out there in books, videos and articles, but it is so spread and fragmented that just a few people have the skill to synthesize it and turn it into a sound playing strategy consisting of practical procedures.


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muebarek
Joined: 31.07.2008
Oldschool Grinder

Originally posted by Meda1985
[...]
P.S. I'm not being emotional, I'm just trying to learn. Please, enlighten me in a best way to progress them. Is there an edge and if there is what is that edge? I'm not saying that as any form of mucking, I'm asking for help from members that have encountered the same problem, playing for hours and hours a day, for months and months and no results... and also... I don't say, maybe I'm just doing it all wrong... Because, if I was over-emotional with so-called "donks" in micro-stakes and if I believed that I have what it takes to beat higher stakes players, thinking that I was just unlucky [...]

Imo, the lines I marked fat show the core of your problem. You have to change your way of thinking drastically!

You sure may have read quite some books/articles on poker, watched training videos and so on. And I don't doubt you're trying to play somewhat accordingly to what you've learned so far but I doubt you know why these strategies are recommended and why you should be supposed to win money against most micro stakes players sticking to these strategic devices.

You only seem to play a strategy because "it's in the books/videos/articles" forgetting what the game of poker is all about: playing better than your opponent! Had you realized this, you wouldn't ask "What is the edge?". Where should an edge come from if you can't even name it? How can you "have what it takes to beat higher stakes players", if you can't explicitely name what you are doing better than them!

So what I'd recommend: Everytime you see "donk plays" or "horrific plays" by your opponent, be honest to yourself and ask yourself "What makes this a bad play and if it is a bad play, how can I take advantage from it?". A "the book says it's bad" doesn't count! If you can't answer the question for yourself THEN look into books/videos/articles and search for an explanation why this play is bad or maybe it turns out not as bad as you thought.

By understanding your opponents mistakes and knowing why you're making money in the long run against them, the way out of the micros shouldn't take long. But if you don't stop thinking "I have an auto-edge because I read books/articles and watched videos" and keep following instructions without understanding their reasoning I predict you'll be stuck in the micros for quite some time.

Sry if it sounds a bit harsh but it's meant to be a wake-up call :)


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Meda1985 Topic starter
Meda1985
Joined: 26.01.2011
PokerStrategist

@blackopps888
I know what you mean. That's why I'm seeking consult on how to play the micros. Because, unfortunately, you have to have a core strategy to stick by. There is not much "poker-play" there. That's why I'm asking, to summarize as much experience from people who have undergone that torture. :)

@muebarek
Dude, no need to apologize, if you think I'm getting it wrong and you are pointing that out to me I'm glad you did. It's just I don't think you've understood me. I DON'T think I have what it takes to beat higher stakes!!! I am not just reading and doing it mechanically and thinking that that's all the wisdom in the World and I don't need to think when I'm applying it. I do shape new-found wisdom and then use it in life. But in poker I'm having difficulties, but not in that way that I think I'm being cursed or something like that. I'm bringing lot of my new experience in any game of poker I play. Maybe that's the problem!? LOL :)
Maybe I've written this in a confusing fashion, I was interrupted several times, but nevertheless... I hope you get what I mean?
What I meant is that I get why something has to be done this way and the other that way and why something you do your own way and something you do other way around... and so on... and I'm constantly trying to improve and be better then other players I play.


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Tavbi123
Joined: 16.04.2010
PokerStrategist

Originally posted by blackops888

Originally posted by Alficor1
This is 10% luck, 20% skill, 15% concentrated power of will, 5% pleasure, 50% pain and 100% reason to remember the name

Agreed. These factors are all involved, but what we are pointing here is that the 50% pain may be something entirely unnecessary if one understands a few concepts that are so often not spoken of.

omggg lold hard
those are lyrics from the song lawl


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Meda1985 Topic starter
Meda1985
Joined: 26.01.2011
PokerStrategist

Yeah, he couldn't believe someone took him for serious. I didn't know the song but it seemed fishy to me! :)


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blackops888
Joined: 25.04.2010
PokerStrategist

Tommy Angelo describes in his Elements of Poker a concept he called "Reciprocality". It is quite abstract, but it refers to the flow of something (anything) between two extremes that hold a difference in polarity. In this fashion, there would be reciprocality between a positively charged wire and a negatively charged one, and the expression of reciprocality would be an electrical current.

In poker reciprocality assumes many forms. He talks about Skill Reciprocality, which is related to the difference of skill between two players and says that from this difference there is a theoretical flow of money between them. The more skilled player is the one who makes the optimal decisions more often, and thus reciprocality points that there is a theoretical flow of money to his lap. It doesn't mean that he will win every pot he plays against the less skilled player, but that in the long term (after sustained and repeated trials) this theoretical expectation is going to be materialized in actual form.

Skill Reciprocality is what we try to increase as we read books, articles, watch videos, discuss hands and so forth. It is the theme of at least 80% of the material we have here in ps.com. It is the "primary", most obvious and currently most highlighted way of trying to mount an skill edge over our opponents. It is so important in actuality but at the same time so highlighted that people often think that this is the only kind of work to be done in their game in order to achieve the success they intend to have. If someone says and is honest about the fact that he has worked extremely hard already to acquire this skill reciprocality and has not yet obtained the success he intended to have in such a long period of time, then there is something wrong. He is either thinking about short-term results and getting disappointed with them (which is not the actuality of someone who's been playing for 1 year but not showing further results) or he is lacking other forms of reciprocality that, once absent, will undermine his skill reciprocality.

(now this last part in bold is the key to the whole stuff if the guy has (1) studied a lot but has not shown decent results yet and (2) has done this over a long period of time)

The problem is that there is also Tilt Reciprocality and Quitting Reciprocality. If someone has already acquired "enough" Skill to beat his limit and has applied this skill over a long period of time already but has not shown great results yet, I think that the cause may be in the absence of these two latter forms of Reciprocality I mentioned.

I can talk more about this if you guys want. This post is quite long already! _biggrin:


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Meda1985 Topic starter
Meda1985
Joined: 26.01.2011
PokerStrategist

WOW mate! I have read this yesterday and left it to read it again today... but I think it is to much for micro-stakes play... but maybe it is essential exactly for the micro-stakes play?! I'll read it it again when I take another break. :)
P.S. I get what you are talking about, but it's to much for my fragile mind. :)


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thejugador
Joined: 17.10.2009
PokerStrategist

If you want to talk more about it I would appreciate it.its a book I must get.


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