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[Closed] How can this be a push?

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Super Moderator
VorpalF2F
Joined: 02.09.2010
Oldschool Grinder

I clearly don't understand this yet.
As I saw this hand, I'm in second place, basically in a 4-way folding war.
The only player able to knock me out is the BB, and I'm in the SB.
I folded -- I have no equity whatsoever, and BB can knock me out and retain his chip lead -- how can this be a push?

Not only a push, but SnG wiz says push ATC.
Here is the graph and the hand export from SnG Wizard

$1.50 PS 1-table SnG

Can someone explain how to interpret the graph, and explain why this is such an obvious push?

FWIW, BB was fairly tight, 20/10 but only 1 hand's worth of steal stats.

And I guess I'm not all THAT bad. From here to the end I got every push/fold correct except the last one and finished in 3rd place. And I can see why that one should have been a fold. But this one baffles me.

PokerStars NLHE Tournament, t100/t200 blinds, 6 handed, 50%/30%/20% payouts
Hand exported from the SitNGo Wizard. How to import this hand into the SitNGo Wizard.
{Tournament|PokerStars|||100|200|0|NLHE Full Table}
UTG: t1970 9.8 BBs{Player|UTG|1970|Fold|0}
UTG+1: t1870 9.4 BBs{Player|UTG+1|1870|Fold|0}
CO: t1055 5.3 BBs{Player|CO|1055|Fold|0}
BTN: t1460 7.3 BBs{Player|BTN|1460|Fold|0}
Hero: t1835 9.2 BBs{Player|Hero|1835|3h|2c}
BB: t5310 27 BBs{Player|BB|5310|None|0|Average|168|31}

Preflop: Hero is SB with 3♥2♣
4 folds, Hero?

Opponent calling ranges when hero pushes:
BB (15+)


6 replies
Gerovit
Joined: 16.01.2011
Elite Grinder

This is far from obvious push.

Graph tells you what range villain has to call for this to be +ev push, so if his calling less then 18% it's ATC push.
Its very unlikely that he is folding A6, 22 or KJ here which are all outside of 18% range.
You should fold at least bottom 15% and 23os is bottom 0.1% so its pretty clear fold


VorpalF2F Topic starter
Super Moderator
VorpalF2F
Joined: 02.09.2010
Oldschool Grinder

OK, Thanks,
After each SnG I go through all the hands w/ Blinds 150 and up and compare my actions to the recommended.

I have a ROI of < 0 and an ITM of about 16% but only over about 30 tournaments yet.

I am not agreement with SnG wizard only on one or two hands per tournament, and the hands I'm busting out on, are often in agreement.

Most of the time I disagree w/ SnG Wizard, it is like this -- it says push, but I fold.

I'm hoping this means that it's just variance that I'm doing so badly.


It sounds like you are skipping a critical part of analyzing a hand with SNG Wizard. You must adjust the default ranges. The default ranges are not much better than assuming everyone has a 20% range all of the time. If you adjust your play to be correct according to SNG Wizard's default ranges, you will damage your push/fold game, and it will be hard to be a winning player.

SNG Wizard usually assumes your opponents will call very tightly against SB pushes, about the same range as against CO pushes. Therefore, SNG Wizard recommends pushing very widely from the SB, often ATC. In reality, many of your opponents don't call nearly as tightly against a SB push as the default range suggests.

Unfortunately, the automatic review is based on the default ranges, so it is close to worthless. Some incorrect folds and pushes will be marked as correct (open-folding AA with a stack of 11 bb) while some decisions will be flagged which are not problems at all.


VorpalF2F Topic starter
Super Moderator
VorpalF2F
Joined: 02.09.2010
Oldschool Grinder

Originally posted by pzhon
It sounds like you are skipping a critical part of analyzing a hand with SNG Wizard. You must adjust the default ranges. The default ranges are not much better than assuming everyone has a 20% range all of the time.

What I do with ranges is adjust the range of the target player until the action changes from push to fold or vice versa.
I figure that this gives me the "go/no-go" limit for whatever range the program has set for me. I then widen/narrow my range to see what happens.
By doing this I can usually justify to myself why I deviated.

Perhaps I should be more concerned with where I agree with SnG Wizard and we're both wrong.

The puzzling thing is I used to do real well at Full Tilt micro SnGs, but I'm just crappy elsewhere.

Before I lose much more, I think maybe some one-on-coaching, but I'm not sure how to arrange it.


VorpalF2F Topic starter
Super Moderator
VorpalF2F
Joined: 02.09.2010
Oldschool Grinder

I looked carefully at the ranges in SnG Wiz after my tourney tonight, and realized that is expects a push w/ ATC from the SB. I'll have to examine that some more -- I just don't think I could (or even should) push 54o into a player that can knock me out w/ 72o

I'm open pushing about 50% from the SB, but tonight I widened it some, because the BB had been tight earlier. There was a LAGgish player to his left, and it was crappy for him with me pushing into him from his right, and the guy on his left overshoving all his raises.

I was somewhat surprised to see what SnG Wiz thinks you should shove Heads Up. I don't play push/fold on every hand HU, but mix in a bunch of stuff.

Another thing that made a difference tonight was having an above average stack when the blinds passed 100


chenny8888
Joined: 03.10.2007
Elite Grinder

The best idea is to just look at the graph and find out where the breakeven point is for making a push or a fold. Then figure out what hands belong to that range and make your decision accordingly. Never use the SNGWizard defaults.


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