Floated IP, barreled turn and gave up on the river, should I have barreled river given this line ?

What was your thoughts during this hand?
Pre-flop seems like a easy fold against a 3bet from the SB.

Cheers,
SDK1987

wow after looking at charts from SB's raising range here I did not realize how strong it should be. SB's range is the one range I have been neglecting to study as much as the rest. I need to study SB more. I thought in the hand that SB could be doing this with many suited broadways, premium pocket pairs etc. I decided to call because I would be IP. On the flop I thought the Q does hit SB's range but I also think most players at 2NL just c-bet at such a high frequency regardless of the board type. I thought maybe I could float and see what developed with backdoor potential. In hindsight I am wondering if we could ever re-raise the flop here with our backdoor equity as a bluff. On the turn Villain checks and I felt like this kind of capped his range as he should probably be betting his overpairs like AA,KK. he may check call medium pairs. I decided to bet 1/3 I think my original thought was this sizing may get Ax to fold but after looking now Idk , what bet sizing do you guys think would be needed to fold out AK,AJ etc.? Villain called and I instantly regretted the turn bet sizing because I felt like this wasn't large enough to really tell us anything specific about his range, even Ax is probably calling. When villain checks river I thought he is either slow playing the Q , has a middling PP or missed his FD with overcards, probably with the intention on calling a decent bet with a hand like AK. your thoughts ?

Problem is that if you would bluff you to need to do it on the river as well. Offcourse you need to deal with a villain that can fold. On NL2 that's tough to say and without reads I wouldn't do it.

I think it is played with some very big mistakes. First of all, if you put SB on weak range, even then I think I would fold pre. I think even then it is just not worth it this bluffing opportunity. So you choose to bluff him out by calling 3bet cold pre 3way, deciding to outplay him postflop in position right. Or, you might hit a hand, a draw or might be ahead of him. I think i have 0% hands that I coldcall pre here by the way... if you think he is weak and 3bets a lot, i would just value4bet with stronger hands than his range and fold weaker hands. Or if you have some insane read on him that he is really weak postflop or something... only then... but to me without reads/stats this looks just too bad.

On flop as played I would still fold. You have absolutely missed the draw/pair what you were hoping for. If you cold call pre, you put yourself into really tough spot, yes, the only positive thing is that you are in position and he might be bad postflop. So you float flop. It is not a good board or spot to do so, I think. You can have a folding range as well, like lets say your style, 87s you might maybe fold here on flop?

So this turn is a really bad card for bluffing. I think he has pocket pairs 77+ alot in his range that he is now always check calling, and even AK he might not fold. He can fold AJs, bluffs like 87s... but not much. Qx he might check raise... but to me he looks like a pocket pair a lot, like AA that is now scared. Maybe I overestimate people on NL2. Well anyway, JJ, AA, I think they never fold even if you bet turn and river both... unless you bet river really big or something... which I think is not a good idea here

So you bet turn really small, I think he will even call AK to this bet. He even has the odds if you are not on Qx or stronger to hit his 6outer, plus you might be bluffing. And this river of course is really bad for bluffing...

Sorry no offense i just wish to understand these spots myself as well... Yes I would fold pre, as played I would fold flop cause he looks quite strong to me as he played.

wow after looking at charts from SB's raising range

Which charts are you using?

Originally posted by Casey55
wow after looking at charts from SB's raising range here I did not realize how strong it should be.

Assuming no bluffs in SBs 3Bet range, it would be TT+ AQ+
What did you find it to be?
For that reason, I'm not cold-calling a 3Bet with speculative hands unless SB is very very loose.
I would rather 4Bet or fold, and with this hand it would be a fold.

hmm.. I'm confused now I think I may have either read the chart wrong or looked at the wrong chart. is BB's range pre-flop either 4-bet or fold?

That is GTO wizards 3-bet SB range vs BTN's open raise. BTN actually min-raised instead of 2.5x .

The chart I was looking at was

this range is only the value 3-bets, I did not add in SB's 3-bet bluffs here.

The weird thing is that when I go to see a flop trying to flat call with BB the solver won't let me see the flop it says something about needing a HU flop situation when that's what it would be... I am wondering if this is because the program doesn't have BB calling at all but only 4-bet or fold. Thoughts? what is BB's range against SB's 3-bet here? does he have a calling range ?

Originally posted by Casey55
The chart I was looking at was

this range is only the value 3-bets, I did not add in SB's 3-bet bluffs here.

Isn't that the fixed-limit chart?
It kinda looks like it.

Originally posted by Casey55
The weird thing is that when I go to see a flop trying to flat call with BB the solver won't let me see the flop it says something about needing a HU flop situation when that's what it would be... I am wondering if this is because the program doesn't have BB calling at all but only 4-bet or fold. Thoughts? what is BB's range against SB's 3-bet here? does he have a calling range ?

usually i would never coldcall there, the only exception maybe if he is a very big fish that just gives money away postflop or if they are both very big fish.

but vs unknown people who i dont know, i would fold preflop. not worth it i think.

pocket 88 i would 4bet, pocket 77 i would fold... AQ 4bet... AT is a fold for me...

so yes here i would just play for value at NL2 and not try to trick them with bluff this time.

you're basically making your situation very difficult, it is ok to fold that hand and choose a better spot, it is much easier to play... and you dont have to worry about very tough postflop lines. lets say you fold it, your winrate would still be like 5bb/100 on that table by just playing for value mostly and isolating limpers with okayish hands, then taking down flops with cbet.

Originally posted by taavi1337
pocket 88 i would 4bet, pocket 77 i would fold... AQ 4bet... AT is a fold for me...

Interesting, I would move the bar even a bit higher, TT for 4bet, 99 already fold... Sometimes I even look at the JJ sideways... "Are you gonna mess me up again, Jay-jay?"

@casey
I like the Btn raise then once you get 3 bet for that sizing dependent on villain i would decide to play or fold... I dont mind the call as J10 suited is a very playable hand and does realize it equity as well. But that being said it is a 4.2x 3bet raise so i would probably fold in this insist not knowing villain..

As for flop- again i dont mind the call, it is a less then 1/3 pot bet and we do hold some good backdoor draws, villains range is clearly better then ours at this moment but can change rapidly dependent on turn card.

As for turn card Q- it does help us with are Back door flush draw, the onlt hand we can be somewhat worried about if we hit are draw is quad Q's as that is all over villains range and AQ hearts. I probably would be checking this behind for a free card, now if this card was a 8/9 hearts I be betting and possible bet with a offsuit 8 or 9 cant say for sure tho.

river- way hand is played and with you stabbing at the turn IMO you need to be willing to follow through on the river with a brick, and the 6s is a brick it helps no one, villain could have JJ, Kk AA which he may fold along with Ak AJ suited and all AK off suit combos as well, he does carry all the KQ, KJ combos.

In the end as stated above if you are wiling to fire the turn, when no diamond comes on river and it is checked to you for the second time you need to fire away IMO, Yes villain showed strength preflop- but then he gave up the next 2 streets..

KEEP GRINDING!!