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Midlife Crisis? What Midlife Crisis?

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jbpatzer Topic starter
jbpatzer
Joined: 23.11.2009
Oldschool Grinder

Originally posted by TwiceT

Originally posted by jbpatzer

Originally posted by arisko
I think you just got pwned by TwiceT :f_biggrin: The funny thing is that I pretty much agreed with you until I read TwiceT's post... a testament to my fishy critical thinking in poker. Of course, there is never a wrong analysis, and you also said things that makes sense. Keep going strong! It seems like you're starting to pwn NL25 now, the only question that arises is if you shouldn't start making a transition from rush to normal non-sicko-action SH since black friday? Dunno how rush tables are, but I can't imagine they're totally unaffected. Of course, being a sucker for promotions, you're probably grinding out the rush ring game tickets.

You know, I was thinking about it, and I just don't believe that AQ, KQ, AA, KK AT, etc would flat my raise on the turn. I think he's almost always on some sort of draw ....

explain pls. what would he do with those hands vs your 3x turn raise? enlighten me prof

Lol. You just want to kick my ass in public! Fair enough. Well, his stats were tight-aggressive, so I would expect him to either commit there or fold, probably 3betting KK, AA and folding AQ, KQ, AT. If he calls, I think it's the flush draw or a straight draw.

EDIT: Btw, I completely agree that I should have bet more on the turn.


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TwiceT
Joined: 15.07.2007
BlackMember

Originally posted by jbpatzer

Originally posted by TwiceT

Originally posted by jbpatzer

Originally posted by arisko
I think you just got pwned by TwiceT :f_biggrin: The funny thing is that I pretty much agreed with you until I read TwiceT's post... a testament to my fishy critical thinking in poker. Of course, there is never a wrong analysis, and you also said things that makes sense. Keep going strong! It seems like you're starting to pwn NL25 now, the only question that arises is if you shouldn't start making a transition from rush to normal non-sicko-action SH since black friday? Dunno how rush tables are, but I can't imagine they're totally unaffected. Of course, being a sucker for promotions, you're probably grinding out the rush ring game tickets.

You know, I was thinking about it, and I just don't believe that AQ, KQ, AA, KK AT, etc would flat my raise on the turn. I think he's almost always on some sort of draw ....

explain pls. what would he do with those hands vs your 3x turn raise? enlighten me prof

Lol. You just want to kick my ass in public! Fair enough. Well, his stats were tight-aggressive, so I would expect him to either commit there or fold, probably 3betting KK, AA and folding AQ, KQ, AT. If he calls, I think it's the flush draw or a straight draw.

EDIT: Btw, I completely agree that I should have bet more on the turn.

pls explain the difference of KK/AA and AQ/KQ. is there any? if so, which?


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jbpatzer Topic starter
jbpatzer
Joined: 23.11.2009
Oldschool Grinder

Originally posted by TwiceT

Originally posted by jbpatzer

Originally posted by TwiceT

Originally posted by jbpatzer

Originally posted by arisko
I think you just got pwned by TwiceT :f_biggrin: The funny thing is that I pretty much agreed with you until I read TwiceT's post... a testament to my fishy critical thinking in poker. Of course, there is never a wrong analysis, and you also said things that makes sense. Keep going strong! It seems like you're starting to pwn NL25 now, the only question that arises is if you shouldn't start making a transition from rush to normal non-sicko-action SH since black friday? Dunno how rush tables are, but I can't imagine they're totally unaffected. Of course, being a sucker for promotions, you're probably grinding out the rush ring game tickets.

You know, I was thinking about it, and I just don't believe that AQ, KQ, AA, KK AT, etc would flat my raise on the turn. I think he's almost always on some sort of draw ....

explain pls. what would he do with those hands vs your 3x turn raise? enlighten me prof

Lol. You just want to kick my ass in public! Fair enough. Well, his stats were tight-aggressive, so I would expect him to either commit there or fold, probably 3betting KK, AA and folding AQ, KQ, AT. If he calls, I think it's the flush draw or a straight draw.

EDIT: Btw, I completely agree that I should have bet more on the turn.

pls explain the difference of KK/AA and AQ/KQ. is there any? if so, which?

Well, KK/AA beat top pair, and are less likely to get drawn out on, and, since they don't include a Q, leave me with more combos of top pair, and, even if the difference isn't that much, people tend to overvalue overpairs relative to top pairs. Maybe some people would 3bet KK/AA and KA/AQ, and some real nits might fold all of them, but, given that his stats indicate he's not a station, would he flat with those hands?


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TwiceT
Joined: 15.07.2007
BlackMember

Originally posted by jbpatzer
Well, his stats were tight-aggressive, so I would expect him to either commit there or fold, probably 3betting KK, AA and folding AQ, KQ, AT. If he calls, I think it's the flush draw or a straight draw.

IMO:

assuming that he is solid tight-aggr plr for those limits (hence he has a brain and some sort of idea what he is doing ...

why should he commit his AA, KK, AQ, KQ (same relative hand strength - bluff catch vs air or combo draws. value hands u raise are better than top pair here.) and why should he fold? he has a reasonable bluff catch hand so 3betting turn in his spot doesnt make sense without any special aggro dynamic (there are def scenarios where it makes sense ... just not here!)
so if he 3b turn, he is clearly isolating himself vs 2pair+ - doesnt make sense
folding vs your rly small raise also doesnt make sense. u could be a fishy reg who just tries a cheap (semi-)bluff or u turn your bottom pair into a bluff or w/e.
so calling is his best option in his mind.

hence, i absolutely dont think u can say "when he calls my small turn raise oop, he never has a [1pair] made hand, he always has a draw. def many made hands in his range. and the river is a rly nice card for some of his made hands. and even is he has KK or AA or AQ

ITS FKN NL50! ppl are not known for their ability to make huge folds. they click call and afterwards tell their friends "bvb, he is loose here, i have to call. river: yeah unlucky, ran into top of his range"
when in fact your range is 2pair+ here 95% and suicide bluffs when u had to much tequila before the session 5%

to make it short:
- raise turn way bigger
- vbet river healthy and fold vs a raise cuz he is a) never bluffing and b) never value raising worse


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fusionpk
Joined: 21.01.2010
Oldschool Grinder

i think its not always a draw that calls the turn, for sure some of the time it is but also his 1pair hands that are kinda scared, they feel like shipping it gets it in bad but they don't want to fold. So on the river if u put in his range 1pairs and draws, its easy bet/fold. The only question is does he always call his pairs on this river? I think KQ+ is most likely going to call or atleast a good % of the time because they can level "oh hearts missed he might be aggrotard trying to buy it" etc. etc. altho I am expecting a raise here reasonably often.

@TT: Would you bet/fold a heart river? I think for me its a bit closer here because I feel like the heart is more of a scare card to him with his 1 pairs etc than the 10 is?


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BOBOsvk
Joined: 14.02.2010
PokerStrategist

tldr; but Mr.Jb don't argue with Mr.TT !!!


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TwiceT
Joined: 15.07.2007
BlackMember

Originally posted by fusionpk
@TT: Would you bet/fold a heart river? I think for me its a bit closer here because I feel like the heart is more of a scare card to him with his 1 pairs etc than the 10 is?

correct. hearts will way more often fold out his 1 pair hands. also, he has way more pair + fd combos than KJ combos. so i would check back if hearts hit


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Waiboy
Joined: 18.09.2008
Oldschool Grinder

Originally posted by BOBOsvk
tldr; but Mr.Jb don't argue with Mr.TT !!!

I respectfully disagree. Argue, then try and understand why you are wrong LDO.


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TwiceT
Joined: 15.07.2007
BlackMember

Originally posted by Waiboy

Originally posted by BOBOsvk
tldr; but Mr.Jb don't argue with Mr.TT !!!

I respectfully disagree. Argue, then try and understand why you are wrong LDO.

:f_thumbsup: nicely said

or - even better - convince me that im am wrong (which in that case, will be very difficult)


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arisko
Joined: 23.09.2009
PokerStrategist

this blog > hand evaluation forums


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supeyrio
Joined: 11.11.2009
Elite Grinder

jealous that mr JB get's such long evaluations(add to the fact that there could be easily tougher spots around) from TT.
i've typed long posts before and i do know how time consuming it is as since typing speed is slower than verbal articulation.
add to the fact that because it's black and white, an organised argument is at least expected for an argument to be understood proper. this would definitely require more thought and effort than if one were to instead verbally articulate one's stand, which could then be less structured, but yet achieve the same effect, as with writing, but with greater ease.

you so lucky :f_mad:


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jbpatzer Topic starter
jbpatzer
Joined: 23.11.2009
Oldschool Grinder

Originally posted by Waiboy

Originally posted by BOBOsvk
tldr; but Mr.Jb don't argue with Mr.TT !!!

I respectfully disagree. Argue, then try and understand why you are wrong LDO.

+1

Sadly, am back at work today. I will try to digest all this at lunchtime.

Originally posted by supeyrio

you so lucky :f_mad:

I am, but so is TT. This book project is a great opportunity for both of us.


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supeyrio
Joined: 11.11.2009
Elite Grinder

Originally posted by jbpatzer

Originally posted by supeyrio

you so lucky :f_mad:

I am, but so is TT. This book project is a great opportunity for both of us.

sadly, this doenst help much in consoling me.
say, how about i get a free copy of the book? :f_biggrin:


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jbpatzer Topic starter
jbpatzer
Joined: 23.11.2009
Oldschool Grinder

Originally posted by supeyrio

Originally posted by jbpatzer

Originally posted by supeyrio

you so lucky :f_mad:

I am, but so is TT. This book project is a great opportunity for both of us.

sadly, this doenst help much in consoling me.
say, how about i get a free copy of the book? :f_biggrin:

I'm sure the wealthier of its two authors would be happy to buy you one, although he may charge you extra for a signed copy.


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BOBOsvk
Joined: 14.02.2010
PokerStrategist

I apologize :(


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jbpatzer Topic starter
jbpatzer
Joined: 23.11.2009
Oldschool Grinder

Originally posted by TwiceT
when in fact your range is 2pair+ here 95% and suicide bluffs when u had to much tequila before the session 5%

So are you saying that if I were playing at a limit where good regs know this, what I wrote would be right, but not at NL25?

And also, would you argue in the same way if I had raised bigger on the turn?


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TwiceT
Joined: 15.07.2007
BlackMember

Originally posted by jbpatzer

Originally posted by TwiceT
when in fact your range is 2pair+ here 95% and suicide bluffs when u had to much tequila before the session 5%

So are you saying that if I were playing at a limit where good regs know this, what I wrote would be right, but not at NL25?

And also, would you argue in the same way if I had raised bigger on the turn?

no, only thing that would be right on e.g. 600 with history vs another good reg is that he
a) would 3bet AQ; KK; AA on the turn for pure value
b) happily call your turn raise and call your river shove with those hands to spike a bluff (which was semi bluff on turn or turning made hand into bluff)

if u had raised bigger the turn, the river is an even easier value bet. the "better" the player, the easier the river vbet becomes.
now question for u: WHY?


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jbpatzer Topic starter
jbpatzer
Joined: 23.11.2009
Oldschool Grinder

Originally posted by TwiceT
if u had raised bigger the turn, the river is an even easier value bet. the "better" the player, the easier the river vbet becomes.
now question for u: WHY?

Because I'd be betting my busted draws so often? Fuck, I don't know. This is so much harder than maths. :f_cry:

Look. You made me cry!


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TwiceT
Joined: 15.07.2007
BlackMember

Originally posted by jbpatzer

Originally posted by TwiceT
if u had raised bigger the turn, the river is an even easier value bet. the "better" the player, the easier the river vbet becomes.
now question for u: WHY?

Because I'd be betting my busted draws so often? Fuck, I don't know. This is so much harder than maths. :f_cry:

Look. You made me cry!

no! try again. im off to 2 hours tennis coaching. will be on again in 3 hours. so u have 3 hours to give a correct answer.

3 hour exam for u now. g0g0g0g0!


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Wriggers
Joined: 21.07.2009
Oldschool Grinder

Some sick analysis in this thread _cool:

I'm sorry jb, but apparently my comment on you playing it correctly was wrong :P


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