PLO-Challenge

Originally posted by tranceactor
At first, probs for facing those questions👍
That takes some courage and is not necessarily easy to do. Good start and well done!
The question now is why do you feel that way about needing to win fast even though you know that thought is in your way and conflicting with BRM? So basically going a layer deeper.

Following your cascade I would say it´s a mix of 2 basic fears (out of 7 accoridng to Napoleon Hill) which in my case are:

1. Fear of Old Age
2. Fear of Poverty

First one I am aware how fast youth goes by and I feel like I nearly wasted 10 years of my most precious time and now despite putting so much effort now into becoming professional everything is moving so slowly. As I said grinding PLO5 for over a year is surely not the trademark of a talented poker genious. Now I have the skill and actually the money aswell but it is still hard work.

Second one is kinda not that strong but still I think about how I want to live if I am old and I am aware that I cannot spoil my money since I will be dependant on it once I retire and it is hard to imagine for me how my life would look like if I woud fail, but well don´t be afraid to fail.

...

Regarding the tilt thing. With all respect to variance I can't see how someone with a >20ev-bb/100 winrate on PLO5 can play with <-20ev-bb/100 over 10k hands on PLO10 and a bit of PLO20. without tilt/bad play playing a huge role tbh. How does your tableselection look like btw?

Thanks. Well no the site is super-soft, I wont change. No traffic on PLO10 is not such a deal now since I earn enough to fuel it up for shots at PLO20 once a month (worst case if I dont make it in January). I have some money back but I after having a tilt streak in December I prefer to "grind it back".

I dont think I lack skill to beat PLO20 (and PLO50 probably too). I already altered my preflop studies a little and got PLO-Matrix as a helpful tool now. Postflop I feel like Jnandez books helps me but I still did not finish. I will get back to read and learn it on weekends. And I still have tons of video material I did not even watch yet.

Tableselection: I take the best tables once at the beginning of the session (they are soft but the only ones so I am not switching around a lot once the session started unless there are primarily regs left or if the table dissolves.

Originally posted by Mascherano95

1. Fear of Old Age
2. Fear of Poverty

Old age isn't great but it isn't anything to be afraid of. (ask me how I know).
Besides it beats all known alternatives.

Poverty on the other hand...

Originally posted by VorpalF2F

Originally posted by Mascherano95

1. Fear of Old Age
2. Fear of Poverty

Old age isn't great but it isn't anything to be afraid of. (ask me how I know).
Besides it beats all known alternatives.

Poverty on the other hand...

There is also Fear of Death.

There is a lot of interesting stuff in your post.
- if you have those fears and have the feeling you wasted your time why not cut your losses and choose a new side hustle? Why stick to poker?

- why taking the slow approach and grinding PLO5/10/20 at all? If you make 10bb/100 and play lets say 300 hands an hour on PLO10 you make 3 dollars per hour. So, to increase your roll by 120$ you grind ~40 hours. If you would instead work irl lets say one extra day for 8 hours and earn lets say 15$/h you would boost your bankroll by 120$ and can study 32 hours without even playing poker. Or, to stay "sharp" you play maybe 8 hours and study 24. This would amplify the speed of building your roll and your skilllevel drastically. Playing micros doesn't. This is btw not an idea from me but from JNandez when he explains why it doesn't make sense to start at micros when you aspire sth in poker (mentioned in some of his youtubestuff). It takes too long and is minus ev compared to other things you could do. I agree with him on this. As long as your hourly is better on doing sth else do mainly that to build your roll. That is very likely the case until at least PLO50. Consider doing the other thing to build your poker roll and give yourself more time to study and get better.
Because basically you need a roll to play relevant stakes and you need the skill to beat them. The sooner you achieve that the better. And as you said you have the feeling it goes to slow. Well, here you saw how to speed it up. You can basically achieve the same with working one extra day that you would grind poker a month for

- when you say you have the skill. Be aware that it is different skills that are needed to make it in poker. It really is not just the technical game. And on top I unfortunately have to assume that you don't have all the skills yet to beat PLO20. You just showed a horrible graph for December that unfortunately leads to one or both of the following. You either don't have the technical skills or the mental skills yet (or both)

Good luck

From what I remember in last Primetime (when I went through hands in forum), there is a room for improvement in the hands you have posted. Which makes it easy to assume that there are also room to improve in the hands you haven't posted.

One way to find out is to have session reviewed in next Primetime, more information at https://forums.pokerstrategy.com/forum/thread.php?threadid=403175&goto=firstnew

:f_drink::f_drink::f_love::f_love:

Originally posted by tranceactor
- why taking the slow approach and grinding PLO5/10/20 at all? If you make 10bb/100 and play lets say 300 hands an hour on PLO10 you make 3 dollars per hour. So, to increase your roll by 120$ you grind ~40 hours. If you would instead work irl lets say one extra day for 8 hours and earn lets say 15$/h you would boost your bankroll by 120$ and can study 32 hours without even playing poker. Or, to stay "sharp" you play maybe 8 hours and study 24. This would amplify the speed of building your roll and your skilllevel drastically. Playing micros doesn't. This is btw not an idea from me but from JNandez when he explains why it doesn't make sense to start at micros when you aspire sth in poker (mentioned in some of his youtubestuff). It takes too long and is minus ev compared to other things you could do. I agree with him on this. As long as your hourly is better on doing sth else do mainly that to build your roll. That is very likely the case until at least PLO50. Consider doing the other thing to build your poker roll and give yourself more time to study and get better.
Because basically you need a roll to play relevant stakes and you need the skill to beat them. The sooner you achieve that the better. And as you said you have the feeling it goes to slow. Well, here you saw how to speed it up. You can basically achieve the same with working one extra day that you would grind poker a month for

- when you say you have the skill. Be aware that it is different skills that are needed to make it in poker. It really is not just the technical game. And on top I unfortunately have to assume that you don't have all the skills yet to beat PLO20. You just showed a horrible graph for December that unfortunately leads to one or both of the following. You either don't have the technical skills or the mental skills yet (or both)

Good luck

I've heard JNandez say that, and wondered what he meant by it.
In general, though I take it to mean -- play the stakes you're rolled for.

There is a problem -- several times we've had players in these forums who "got lucky" and won a big MTT -- say a couple of grand, then figured they were rolled for NL 100 and lost it pretty fast.

The roll is half the battle, the skill is the other half.
Do you agree that you can't get the skillz for NL 50 by playing NL 10?
The solution is to take shots.
Small steps lead to big ones.

very thought provoking post -- thanks.
The thought that it is provoking is that I should stop messing about in the micros...

Originally posted by tranceactor
And on top I unfortunately have to assume that you don't have all the skills yet to beat PLO20. You just showed a horrible graph for December that unfortunately leads to one or both of the following. You either don't have the technical skills or the mental skills yet (or both)

Don't be so harsh. It was only 10K hands or so. +30BI or -30BI in that many hands doesn't mean much at all. Literally anything can happen. I'd much rather trust Mascherano95's impression over that sample: does he feel he has has been unlucky or outplayed?

Originally posted by VorpalF2F
The roll is half the battle, the skill is the other half.
Do you agree that you can't get the skillz for NL 50 by playing NL 10?
The solution is to take shots.
Small steps lead to big ones.

Very much agree with VorpalF2F on this and I believe Kyyberi gave a similar advice earlier on in this thread.
And by the way, I advise to short stack PLO10 rather than play PLO5. Even I, a player new to PLO, find PLO5 not challenging enough to learn new things. If it is too easy, it leads to boredom and an intellectual lethargy that is not conductive to improvement. Better play where you feel challenged as long as you can afford it.

Anyway, interesting thread. I will follow it.

I would say "play the stakes that suits your goals".

@donkey111

Yes, you are right. It sounds a bit harsh. And my apologies if it was too harsh! I really don't want to put Mascherano down but show alternatives as I really think he needs to approach it differently.
From my experience (playing PLO professionally mid to lower highstakes for about 9 years and NL SSS highstakes before) over 10k hands you just don't lose that many big blinds in EV if you are a decent winner at the stakes, play well and don't tilt. I had terrible runs under EV in my career as well as quite lucky ones over EV but there never has been a stretch that long where I produced so negative EV-bb/100 over such a long stretch in PLO (I am pretty sure not even with NL SSS, even though my winrate was "only" 3-4bb). And my winrate in ev-bb/100 is way less than the 20+ ev-bb that mascherano has on PLO5. So, sth does not match at least in my heaf. Just my 2cents

@vorpalF2F
Yes, you are definitely right. Only play what you are rolled for. 100% agree. I'd even add "don't take shots". But why not roll yourself otherwise?

Lets assume we start at PLO5 and you need at least 50 stacks to play a limit above which is double your actual limit (here PLO10). That means you need to win 2500bb as you already have 2500 (as you otherwise would not be able to play your actual limit) before moving up in stakes. And lets also assume that you need 50 hours of working on you(r game) to beat the next limit with the same winrate that you beat your current limit with but the amount of hours you need to do so always doubles to beat the next limit.

So, you need 50 hours of work outside playing to beat PLO5, 100 for PLO10, 200 for PLO20 aso on average. Then even with a 20bb winrate (which I doubt will be sustainable tbh) and 300 hands/h which I think is too high in the learning stage it takes 2500:20*100=12500 hands which equates to 42 hours. Add the needed 50 hours in theory and you have 90 hours. And those need to be focussed hours. Playing or studying not focussed doesn't really work. If someone works full time that easily takes 2 months on the side for winning 250$. And don't forget that is calculated for an extreme crusher. Who would want to work for ~2.70$/h? If calculated still on the optimistic side for most players with 5bb/100, it takes 168 hours of grinding and 50 hours of theory which is 218 hours alltogether and probably 4 to 5 months work on the side for ~1.10$/h.

OK, we reached PLO10 with a roll of $500. For the 20bb/100 crusher it is then 42 hours of grinding + 100 hours of working on skills to be rdy for PLO20. So, 142h which done on the side takes 3 to 4 months work and still only an hourly of 500$/142h~3.5$/h. So, basically for an insane crusher with 20bb/100 winrate half a year is gone now in which he made 750$ and only started playing PLO20 and he is still far from making a relevant hourly rate at poker. The more realistic 5bb/100 player needs 268 hours. That's 6 to 7 months if done on the side. So, he needs almost a year to make it from PLO5 to PLO20 where he still does not make a decent hourly rate. For a 5bb/100 player (and lets not forget that this still is a pretty decent winrate) it basically takes almost 2 years to win more than 10$/h. And even the crusher needs about a year. So, not the right thing for someone who feels as if it takes too long and that he is wasting time. What to do? - Take available shortcuts. Remember, you need the roll and the skills to play relevant stakes and grinding micros does not help any of those a lot. Some of the shortcuts are:
- build your roll off the poker tables
- study way more, play way less
- study efficiently and effectively

For the ladder (despite JNandez obv. also wanting to sell his stuff which isn't really affordable for microstakes grinders) you need good materials/coaches/tools but that usually comes at a price too.

"Don't you learn the skills for NL50 by playing NL10?" I'd say a tiny bit but you definitely gain most skill OFF the tables by working on all aspects of your game. What keeps people from learning enough to beat a certain stake at poker? Well, either they don't like studying the game and don't feel strong enough about getting better. If that is the case there is basically no chance to become a pro as other people simply put more work in and then beat the lazy one. Or, they are lacking time to study. If that is the case, they get better very slowly as playing doesn't improve skill much.

So, where to get the time for studying from? Well, throw away the smartphone. But as that isn't enough, just play less poker and study more instead. And maybe "buy" the time for studying by making money outside of poker to use for your roll or paying for coaching, courses, tools etc. that make you learn faster/better.

Good luck at the tables!

Originally posted by tranceactor
@vorpalF2F
Yes, you are definitely right. Only play what you are rolled for. 100% agree. I'd even add "don't take shots". But why not roll yourself otherwise?

We take shots to test our skill against others at that level.
At this moment, strictly by the amount of money in my poker bankroll, I could play NL 100, or play tournaments with an average buy-in of $30
I think that it is better to build on what we know, then take the next step when we understand the game, the culture, and have the ability to accurately put players on ranges.

I can to this at higher stakes NL 5-Card Draw, but not at NLHE, where I play NL 10 OK, but continually fall flat at NL 25.
The biggest reason (or so I tell myself) is that I don't play it enough.

Cheers,
VS

Oh ok. I understand taking a shot as playing underrolled (in whatever form) and I understand what you are doing as cautiously moving up in stakes but not as taking a shot.
If you always fall flat at NL25 how do you exactly approach it? Do you play the same number of tables as you would do on NL10? Do you feel more excited/scared or anything because it is more money/better competition or sth else? Have you ever compared your stats on NL10 and NL25? Have you ever compared stats and tendencies of the two playerpools? Do you realise inconvenient spots that you get put in more often? Do you mix the limits when playing NL25? How does your tableselection look like/change? Etc

But why playing NL10 or 25 at all if you are already beating way higher stakes at 5 card draw?

Originally posted by tranceactor
But why playing NL10 or 25 at all if you are already beating way higher stakes at 5 card draw?

I like the ideas you present about playing fewer tables.
Next time I'm inclined, I'll play just one table of each (not zoom) and pay close attention to who is at the tables.
Also, to me "taking a shot" doesn't imply underrolled. It is more like taking the next step -- "cautiously moving up in stakes" as you put it.
So we're basically on the same page.

The main reason is that NL 25 is the highest stakes 5-Card Draw available except on rare occasions.
And on those occasions, the competition at the table is usually players all well known to each other.

Finally, No Limit Hold'em is the game that is most common, and has the widest selection of tables.

I don't want to derail Mascheranos thread too much but just some general thoughts:
The population on every limit on every site plays a little different and our brain needs to adapt. So, I would not mix limits but only play the higher limit cautiously on less tables when you try to move up. You can actually unlearn the right adaptions on your limit by playing lower limits where the same adaptions might be wrong. I am not sure how much that is true for NL but for PLO I can tell you that there is a huge difference from PLO100 to PLO200 and an even bigger one from PLO200 to PLO500 on Stars.
Apart from that I am not sure about wanting to make it in no limit cash nowadays. The competition is huge, the advantage for the already established regs in studying is huge and you need to be willing to put a lot of work in to have half a chance. I mean even waaghbozz wasn't able to beat NL100 properly lately despite having the work ethic, having been pretty much on top of the HUSNG world once and having fishy games because of lockdown poker boom (see german pokerstrategy forum). And RTA is starting to become a problem apparently (remember Fedor Kruse). So, I would definitely advise juicier games than NL cash. As you already made it in 5card draw why not add another mixed game instead where there is not much content/solvers/competition but some traffic? Not FL Holdem obv^^

Considering how interesting the discussion is, I doubt M95 will mind that we derail his thread a little I will add my own random 2c to Trance's already excellent $2:
- My biggest downswing in 10k hands was at NL10 for 20BI in 2010. I was a break even player in those days (despite having been quite successful at NL2 and NL5). I have little experience in PLO but I suppose for someone with a small win rate, it is possible to achieve -30BI in PLO in 10k hands.

- From what I have observed the guys with massive win rates for their stake are the guys who play two stakes below the stake they should play but for whatever reason have decided to play lower. That's why I think 20bb/100 for a first timer is very optimistic unless they are naturally very talented at poker (not the case of most players).

- The biggest skill jump for me was from NL50 to NL100 (on PokerStars). I believe the reason is that there were many pros playing NL100 vs NL50. Also, at the time, everyone playing NL100 could afford a seating script, making it quite hard to get a seat on good tables.

- Imho, the most important skill to gain at micro stakes is exploiting bad players. Never treat two bad players the same because they all have their own individual leaks. Do they call too much? Or raise too much? Or maybe they are very loose pre and tight postflop? How do you exploit them precisely? Don't leave a table because very good regs are playing there. On the contrary, be very observant of how they exploit bad players. That's the problem with starting too high a stake: bad players are rarer and you spend a lot of time against other skilful regs. On the other hand, bad players are everywhere at the micros. Also learn to evaluate a bad player's leaks: if they're losing at -8bb/100, you time is probably better spent elsewhere unless you have a very good read and a good seat on them.

- Life is too short. One of my biggest regrets is not to have played PLO earlier and wait till 2020 after 10 years of playing NL (6 of which being very active). The average NL100 reg is ridiculously good nowadays. It takes a lot of hard work to get a decent win rate and that win rate will never be as good as in PLO. I should have cut my losses (in term of time) no later than 2014 but I was too much into the mindset of playing challenging games and the fact I had invested so much time learning NL so I felt committed. I am certain I would be much richer nowadays if I had switched years ago. Now, I am talking from the perspective of someone who wants to max their earning. If your objective is different, this may not apply.

- Completely agree with Trance on studying a lot. Now, that's quite hard to figure out how to study effectively. It is very easy to lose a huge amount of time in situations that won't impact your win rate anyway. Been there, done that... (That's a large topic but here is a small free tip: in NL, a large part of your win rate comes from 3b pots so learn to navigate them well).

Originally posted by tranceactor
There is a lot of interesting stuff in your post.
- if you have those fears and have the feeling you wasted your time why not cut your losses and choose a new side hustle? Why stick to poker?

Because the battle is lost as soon as you give up. It´s not like I am making no progress at all and that I´d estimate at as a hopeless dream. So giving up is no option for sure. Poker is a passion to me. Like strategy games in general but poker is the way to go to financial freedom (contrary to chess or RTS-Games). Which side hustles do you mean? Some friends, one of it a former Mid-Stakes NLHE HU-Cash player, switched to Afiliate marketing. But that is even more dubious to me and I dont think getting rich is that easy and how much of the brags about lifestyle on social medie ie. is show-off and what´s real. I really think Poker is a serious opportunity to make it a easy living, but obviously it is a hard way to get there. If you jump on every train that looks promising you are getting no where.

- why taking the slow approach and grinding PLO5/10/20 at all? If you make 10bb/100 and play lets say 300 hands an hour on PLO10 you make 3 dollars per hour. So, to increase your roll by 120$ you grind ~40 hours. If you would instead work irl lets say one extra day for 8 hours and earn lets say 15$/h you would boost your bankroll by 120$ and can study 32 hours without even playing poker. Or, to stay "sharp" you play maybe 8 hours and study 24. This would amplify the speed of building your roll and your skilllevel drastically. Playing micros doesn't. This is btw not an idea from me but from JNandez when he explains why it doesn't make sense to start at micros when you aspire sth in poker (mentioned in some of his youtubestuff). It takes too long and is minus ev compared to other things you could do. I agree with him on this. As long as your hourly is better on doing sth else do mainly that to build your roll. That is very likely the case until at least PLO50. Consider doing the other thing to build your poker roll and give yourself more time to study and get better.
Because basically you need a roll to play relevant stakes and you need the skill to beat them. The sooner you achieve that the better. And as you said you have the feeling it goes to slow. Well, here you saw how to speed it up. You can basically achieve the same with working one extra day that you would grind poker a month for

Yes I know that vid by Jnandez, I watched it on YouTube. I can remember 2018 I said to myself, it is not true, I will do it within a reasonable time and I am just better than that. Well reality proved my wrong. I needed a lot of timeto actually beat the micros (I was a break-even Player the first multiple hunndred of thousand hands). So that was the first milestone. I also did a lot more studies in Hungary than it is possible now. I worked on Tom Chambers book Advanced PLO-Theory, watched Jnandez University Vids, made some MasterMind stuff, read the book "Strategies to beat Small-Stakes Pot-Limit Omaha" by Matthias Pum, discussed Postflop line (here in PS aswell), discussed hand samples with mates etc. It´s not like, the time used on Micros was totally wasted, it just primarily did not match my expectations (both in monetary results and content I could work through which appeared to be more complex and difficult than assumed). Obviously now it is too late to turn back the time. I already have a fulltime job of 45 hours per week. I manage to play 240 hands per hours (idk how you come to 300?). Where should I put thhe additional 40 hours grind and 24 hours study? After work I am quite tired mentally so a final session of 45 minutes grind is reasonable and the studies have to be made on weekends. That´s what my current mental capacities deliver.

- when you say you have the skill. Be aware that it is different skills that are needed to make it in poker. It really is not just the technical game. And on top I unfortunately have to assume that you don't have all the skills yet to beat PLO20. You just showed a horrible graph for December that unfortunately leads to one or both of the following. You either don't have the technical skills or the mental skills yet (or both).

Good luck

Thanks. I would tip on mental skills if so, maybe exhaustion since I had a quite decent volume, but as already mentioned 10k hands is not really a sample. In general I have to play some hands per day otherwise I get out of practice as the September 2020 and December 2019 Breaks have shown. To let you decide if the hand was tilted, technically misplayed or well played, I have picked out all big-pot-hands of my 3 biggest losing sessions in December 2020, let´s go:

iPoker - €0.20 PL Hi (6 max) - Omaha Hi - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

CO: 207.65 BB
Hero (BTN): 100 BB
SB: 196.5 BB
BB: 244.5 BB
UTG: 100 BB
MP: 863.1 BB

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has J:spade: 6:spade: A:club: 9:diamond:

UTG raises to 3.5 BB, MP calls 3.5 BB, fold, Hero raises to 15.5 BB, fold, fold, UTG calls 12 BB, MP calls 12 BB

Flop: (48 BB, 3 players) T:club: 2:club: 7:heart:
UTG checks, MP checks, Hero checks

Turn: (48 BB, 3 players) 4:heart:
UTG checks, MP checks, Hero checks

River: (48 BB, 3 players) 6:club:
UTG checks, MP bets 33.6 BB, Hero raises to 84.5 BB, fold, MP calls 50.9 BB

MP shows 3:spade: K:heart: J:club: 7:club: (Flush, Jack High)
(Pre 44%, Flop 76%, Turn 80%)
Hero mucks J:spade: 6:spade: A:club: 9:diamond: (One Pair, Sixes)
(Pre 56%, Flop 24%, Turn 20%)
MP wins 212 BB

Villain is a crazy maniac with 90/80/70 over 100 hands.

iPoker - €0.20 PL Hi (6 max) - Omaha Hi - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: 207.65 BB
Hero (SB): 100 BB
BB: 197.5 BB
UTG: 248.5 BB
MP: 101.5 BB
CO: 759.1 BB

Hero posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has A:club: T:spade: 3:diamond: 4:diamond:

UTG calls 1 BB, MP calls 1 BB, CO raises to 4 BB, fold, Hero calls 3.5 BB, fold, UTG calls 3 BB, MP calls 3 BB

Flop: (17 BB, 4 players) 9:diamond: 6:club: 2:diamond:
Hero checks, UTG checks, MP checks, CO bets 11.9 BB, Hero raises to 26.35 BB, fold, fold, CO calls 14.45 BB

Turn: (69.7 BB, 2 players) Q:heart:
Hero bets 69.65 BB, CO calls 69.65 BB

River: (209 BB, 2 players) 5:club:

CO shows 2:heart: 5:diamond: 8:diamond: 7:club: (Straight, Nine High)
(Pre 51%, Flop 84%, Turn 80%)
Hero mucks A:club: T:spade: 3:diamond: 4:diamond: (Straight, Six High)
(Pre 49%, Flop 16%, Turn 20%)
CO wins 204 BB

Same villain here.

iPoker - €0.20 PL Hi (6 max) - Omaha Hi - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

SB: 225.15 BB
Hero (BB): 194.45 BB
UTG: 81 BB
MP: 100 BB
CO: 158.1 BB
BTN: 803.6 BB

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, Hero posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has 9:club: 6:diamond: 5:club: 7:spade:

UTG calls 1 BB, MP calls 1 BB, fold, BTN raises to 5.5 BB, fold, Hero raises to 19 BB, UTG calls 18 BB, MP raises to 82 BB, BTN calls 76.5 BB, Hero calls 63 BB, UTG calls 62 BB

Flop: (327.5 BB, 4 players) 7:club: K:spade: 9:diamond:
Hero bets 112.45 BB, MP calls 18 BB, fold

Turn: (363.5 BB, 3 players) 8:club:

River: (363.5 BB, 3 players) K:diamond:

UTG shows A:diamond: 9:spade: T:diamond: T:spade: (Two Pair, Kings and Tens)

Main Pot [324.5 BB]: (Pre 46%, Flop 15%, Turn 11%)

MP shows 8:heart: 6:heart: K:club: A:club: (Full House, Kings full of Eights)

Main Pot [324.5 BB]: (Pre 34%, Flop 45%, Turn 33%)
Side Pot#1 [39 BB]: (Pre 62%, Flop 50%, Turn 33%)

Hero mucks 9:club: 6:diamond: 5:club: 7:spade: (Straight, Nine High)

Main Pot [324.5 BB]: (Pre 20%, Flop 40%, Turn 56%)
Side Pot#1 [39 BB]: (Pre 38%, Flop 50%, Turn 67%)

MP wins 358.5 BB

BU is once more the same maniac who drived the action in that session. EP and MP both weak-tigh 30/15 regulars.

iPoker - €0.20 PL Hi (6 max) - Omaha Hi - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

CO: 100 BB
Hero (BTN): 183.45 BB
SB: 137.55 BB
BB: 100 BB
UTG: 122.4 BB
MP: 373.65 BB

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has J:heart: Q:heart: T:diamond: Q:club:

fold, MP raises to 3 BB, fold, Hero raises to 10.5 BB, SB calls 10 BB, fold, MP calls 7.5 BB

Flop: (32.5 BB, 3 players) 4:diamond: 4:spade: K:spade:
SB checks, MP checks, Hero bets 11.35 BB, fold, MP calls 11.35 BB

Turn: (55.2 BB, 2 players) 6:spade:
MP checks, Hero bets 41.4 BB, MP calls 41.4 BB

River: (138 BB, 2 players) 6:diamond:
MP checks, Hero bets 120.2 BB, MP calls 120.2 BB

MP shows 5:diamond: 5:spade: 4:heart: T:spade: (Flush, King High)
(Pre 34%, Flop 89%, Turn 95%)
Hero mucks J:heart: Q:heart: T:diamond: Q:club: (Two Pair, Queens and Sixes)
(Pre 66%, Flop 11%, Turn 5%)
MP wins 373.4 BB

iPoker - €0.20 PL Hi (6 max) - Omaha Hi - 5 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

UTG: 123.25 BB
Hero (CO): 155.35 BB
BTN: 235.3 BB
SB: 39 BB
BB: 112.6 BB

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has 4:diamond: Q:club: 6:club: 8:heart:

fold, Hero raises to 3.5 BB, fold, fold, BB raises to 10 BB, Hero calls 6.5 BB

Flop: (20.5 BB, 2 players) K:spade: 4:club: 8:diamond:
BB bets 10.25 BB, Hero raises to 51.25 BB, BB raises to 102.6 BB, Hero calls 51.35 BB

Turn: (225.7 BB, 2 players) 3:club:

River: (225.7 BB, 2 players) 3:spade:

Hero mucks 4:diamond: Q:club: 6:club: 8:heart: (Two Pair, Eights and Fours)
(Pre 42%, Flop 15%, Turn 23%)
BB shows 4:heart: T:diamond: T:spade: 4:spade: (Full House, Fours full of Threes)
(Pre 58%, Flop 85%, Turn 78%)
BB wins 220.7 BB

It is the same maniac in both hands again. My bluff triple barrel was tilt obviously and I marked it as a blunder. Just posted it here for the sake of conveying you a complete picture. At the last hand I am not 100% sure if it is a mistake since my bottom-2pair could be somewhat okay against his range that´d include a lot of naked top-pair and weaker hands but probably I would not have shipped either in another state of mind.

PokerStars - $0.25 Ante $0.03 PL Hi FAST (6 max) - Omaha Hi - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

Hero (BTN): 109.36 BB
SB: 100.88 BB
BB: 619.76 BB
UTG: 116.24 BB
MP: 86 BB
CO: 90.28 BB

6 players post ante of 0.12 BB, SB posts SB 0.4 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 2.12 BB) Hero has J:diamond: Q:spade: 8:heart: J:spade:

fold, MP calls 1 BB, fold, Hero raises to 5.12 BB, fold, BB calls 4.12 BB, MP calls 4.12 BB

Flop: (16.48 BB, 3 players) 4:diamond: T:diamond: 7:spade:
BB checks, MP bets 8 BB, Hero calls 8 BB, BB raises to 47.76 BB, fold, Hero calls 39.76 BB

Turn: (120 BB, 2 players) 2:heart:
BB bets 114.88 BB, Hero calls 56.36 BB and is all-in

River: (232.72 BB, 2 players) 7:diamond:

BB shows 3:heart: 6:heart: 4:heart: 7:club: (Full House, Sevens full of Fours)
(Pre 38%, Flop 58%, Turn 70%)
Hero shows J:diamond: Q:spade: 8:heart: J:spade: (Two Pair, Jacks and Sevens)
(Pre 62%, Flop 42%, Turn 30%)
BB wins 224.72 BB

BU is a 40/30/10 Lag-fish.

PokerStars - $0.25 Ante $0.03 PL Hi FAST (6 max) - Omaha Hi - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: 74.56 BB
SB: 238.44 BB
BB: 103.16 BB
UTG: 102.36 BB
MP: 378.68 BB
Hero (CO): 100 BB

6 players post ante of 0.12 BB, SB posts SB 0.4 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 2.12 BB) Hero has K:diamond: 4:heart: 3:diamond: J:heart:

fold, fold, Hero raises to 4.12 BB, BTN raises to 14.48 BB, fold, fold, Hero calls 10.36 BB

Flop: (31.08 BB, 2 players) T:club: 6:diamond: 3:club:
Hero checks, BTN bets 19.84 BB, Hero calls 19.84 BB

Turn: (70.76 BB, 2 players) Q:heart:
Hero bets 65.56 BB and is all-in, BTN calls 40.12 BB and is all-in

River: (151 BB, 2 players) 4:club:

BTN cashed out 93.04 BB for a fee of 0.92 BB

Hero shows K:diamond: 4:heart: 3:diamond: J:heart: (Two Pair, Fours and Threes)
(Pre 38%, Flop 36%, Turn 35%)
BTN shows 5:heart: A:diamond: 2:heart: A:heart: (Straight, Six High)
(Pre 62%, Flop 64%, Turn 65%)

BU is an unknown player.

iPoker - €0.10 PL Hi (6 max) - Omaha Hi - 5 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

UTG: 272.5 BB
CO: 83.5 BB
Hero (BTN): 124.6 BB
SB: 72.8 BB
BB: 112.5 BB

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has 6:club: J:diamond: 5:heart: 8:heart:

UTG raises to 3.5 BB, CO calls 3.5 BB, Hero raises to 15.5 BB, fold, fold, UTG calls 12 BB, CO calls 12 BB

Flop: (48 BB, 3 players) 2:diamond: 6:spade: T:heart:
UTG checks, CO checks, Hero bets 24 BB, UTG raises to 120 BB, fold, Hero calls 85.1 BB

Turn: (266.2 BB, 2 players) 3:spade:

River: (266.2 BB, 2 players) Q:spade:

UTG shows 6:heart: K:heart: K:club: 9:diamond: (One Pair, Kings)
(Pre 65%, Flop 69%, Turn 68%)
Hero mucks 6:club: J:diamond: 5:heart: 8:heart: (One Pair, Sixes)
(Pre 35%, Flop 31%, Turn 33%)
UTG wins 258.2 BB

MP is a 40/30/10 something between lag and aggro-fish.

iPoker - €0.10 PL Hi (6 max) - Omaha Hi - 5 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

CO: 98 BB
BTN: 117.2 BB
Hero (SB): 141.9 BB
BB: 39 BB
UTG: 101 BB

Hero posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has 9:diamond: K:diamond: 7:heart: K:heart:

fold, fold, BTN raises to 3 BB, Hero raises to 10 BB, BB calls 9 BB, BTN calls 7 BB

Flop: (30 BB, 3 players) J:heart: 8:heart: T:heart:
Hero checks, BB bets 29 BB, BTN calls 29 BB, Hero raises to 131.9 BB, BTN calls 78.2 BB

Turn: (273.4 BB, 3 players) 8:diamond:

River: (273.4 BB, 3 players) 5:spade:

BTN shows 9:heart: J:spade: 2:club: Q:heart: (Straight Flush, Queen High)

Main Pot [117 BB]: (Pre 16%, Flop 100%, Turn 100%)
Side Pot#1 [156.4 BB]: (Pre 25%, Flop 100%, Turn 100%)

Hero mucks 9:diamond: K:diamond: 7:heart: K:heart: (Flush, King High)

Main Pot [117 BB]: (Pre 53%, Flop 0%, Turn 0%)
Side Pot#1 [156.4 BB]: (Pre 75%, Flop 0%, Turn 0%)

BB shows Q:spade: 4:club: A:heart: 9:spade: (Straight, Queen High)

Main Pot [117 BB]: (Pre 31%, Flop 0%, Turn 0%)

BTN wins 265.2 BB

BU is a 80/40/20 maniac whereas BB is pretty much unknown.

iPoker - €0.10 PL Hi (6 max) - Omaha Hi - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

MP: 153.3 BB
CO: 146.9 BB
BTN: 53.9 BB
Hero (SB): 100 BB
BB: 60.5 BB
UTG: 53.9 BB

Hero posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has A:diamond: 8:diamond: J:spade: T:spade:

UTG raises to 3.5 BB, MP calls 3.5 BB, fold, fold, Hero raises to 15 BB, BB calls 14 BB, UTG calls 11.5 BB, MP calls 11.5 BB

Flop: (60 BB, 4 players) 2:spade: K:heart: J:diamond:
Hero bets 24 BB, BB raises to 45.5 BB, fold, MP calls 45.5 BB, Hero calls 21.5 BB

Turn: (196.5 BB, 3 players) 4:spade:
Hero bets 39.5 BB, MP calls 39.5 BB

River: (275.5 BB, 3 players) 9:heart:

MP shows 2:club: 6:diamond: J:club: Q:club: (Two Pair, Jacks and Twos)

Main Pot [196.5 BB]: (Pre 16%, Flop 30%, Turn 33%)
Side Pot#1 [79 BB]: (Pre 32%, Flop 38%, Turn 44%)

Hero mucks A:diamond: 8:diamond: J:spade: T:spade: (One Pair, Jacks)

Main Pot [196.5 BB]: (Pre 51%, Flop 47%, Turn 44%)
Side Pot#1 [79 BB]: (Pre 69%, Flop 62%, Turn 56%)

BB shows 7:spade: 6:spade: K:club: 6:club: (One Pair, Kings)

Main Pot [196.5 BB]: (Pre 32%, Flop 23%, Turn 22%)

MP wins 267.2 BB

Good action at my local site also at the last hand, where EP a 90/25 and BB 70/10 two calling stations are sticking around with insanely wide ranges.

Originally posted by Kyyberi
From what I remember in last Primetime (when I went through hands in forum), there is a room for improvement in the hands you have posted. Which makes it easy to assume that there are also room to improve in the hands you haven't posted.

One way to find out is to have session reviewed in next Primetime, more information at https://forums.pokerstrategy.com/forum/thread.php?threadid=403175&goto=firstnew

:f_drink::f_drink::f_love::f_love:

Unfortunately no time at 18:00 (just arriving at home).

Originally posted by Donkey111
Considering how interesting the discussion is, I doubt M95 will mind that we derail his thread a little I will add my own random 2c to Trance's already excellent $2:

- From what I have observed the guys with massive win rates for their stake are the guys who play two stakes below the stake they should play but for whatever reason have decided to play lower. That's why I think 20bb/100 for a first timer is very optimistic unless they are naturally very talented at poker (not the case of most players).

- The biggest skill jump for me was from NL50 to NL100 (on PokerStars). I believe the reason is that there were many pros playing NL100 vs NL50. Also, at the time, everyone playing NL100 could afford a seating script, making it quite hard to get a seat on good tables.

- Imho, the most important skill to gain at micro stakes is exploiting bad players. Never treat two bad players the same because they all have their own individual leaks. Do they call too much? Or raise too much? Or maybe they are very loose pre and tight postflop? How do you exploit them precisely? Don't leave a table because very good regs are playing there. On the contrary, be very observant of how they exploit bad players. That's the problem with starting too high a stake: bad players are rarer and you spend a lot of time against other skilful regs. On the other hand, bad players are everywhere at the micros. Also learn to evaluate a bad player's leaks: if they're losing at -8bb/100, you time is probably better spent elsewhere unless you have a very good read and a good seat on them.

- Life is too short. One of my biggest regrets is not to have played PLO earlier and wait till 2020 after 10 years of playing NL (6 of which being very active). The average NL100 reg is ridiculously good nowadays. It takes a lot of hard work to get a decent win rate and that win rate will never be as good as in PLO. I should have cut my losses (in term of time) no later than 2014 but I was too much into the mindset of playing challenging games and the fact I had invested so much time learning NL so I felt committed. I am certain I would be much richer nowadays if I had switched years ago. Now, I am talking from the perspective of someone who wants to max their earning. If your objective is different, this may not apply.

- Completely agree with Trance on studying a lot. Now, that's quite hard to figure out how to study effectively. It is very easy to lose a huge amount of time in situations that won't impact your win rate anyway. Been there, done that... (That's a large topic but here is a small free tip: in NL, a large part of your win rate comes from 3b pots so learn to navigate them well).

It´s okay to derail to your personal experience as long as we don´t get into technical stuff about NLHE. At the end we are all somewhat trying to achieve the same: Winning at Poker.

PLO50 to PLO100 seems to a massive jump in PLO too from what I´ve heard. Yeah, not exploiting on Micros is cutting your self pretty hard since they deviate soo extremely from what could be considered optimal. Another regret is, that I did not take poker more seriously in the golden Ages around 2008/2009 where I´ve been already around at the tables at NLHE. I was even winning few just a few effort and everything was exciting and new but I barely considered it as something, you need to work on at a daily basis. I had no idea not know how frustrating a full -time job can be if you dont like it and if you study, you are basically in a fixed sheme work at the area where you are educated. But who wants to do the same work until 62 and stick to a lousy paycheck of 1500€ - 3000€ where you could make millions? So I can´t blame my old me to have not reacted to things I just did not know. It is hard to anticipate to things where you are just not really innvolved into. Adolescent Carelessness, but know I know what´s about.
♦

As a conclusionfor now I will take away that beside the goals in terms of BRM and volume I need concrete study goals and to set priorities at my studies and ensure my skill is improving at least at a slow rate. So for this month, first I plan to finish chapter 7 postflop strategy single raised pots from the book. Second, this week I have finished to create my preflop ranges from PLO-Matrix EP-SB RFI, BUvsCO and SBvsBU so I am ready to start memorizing those ranges which would be the something to get done in February.

H1: fold preflop. with assumption villain is no good player I dont see any foldequity with NFB on river

H2: fold preflop. What are you trying to achieve with AT43 non nut suited OOP in most likely 4 way pot? are you really check/2.5x raising the flop with a 4 high fd and a non nut gutshot 4way? insane comes to my mind. playing maniacs successfully is not to be meant to fight fire with fire and start playing like one.

H3: fold preflop. dont 3bet with top gapped ss rundowns.

H4: not sure about iso 3betting but i think it helps if you would have an A/K blocker plus nns or ds instead of ss. flop is interesting because you have SDV with that queens but no spade or kingblocker, i guess the cbet is ok aand with backdoors checkback becomes an option. if you continue on turn dont 2nd barrel without blocker imo. once river double pairs, a flush doesnt need to fold anymore so another bullet you can save.

H5: fold preflop. Q864s is already close open on BTN imo. i would like to see some general stats of yours if you adjust like this to all maniacs

Looked the pic and first 4 are easy folds pre. None of those are even close.

QQJT I don't like the 3bet, even versus maniac. Hand plays well with a call, and not having AK in hand really hurts. Turning the hand into pure 3 barrel bluff without any blockers can't be justified in any way.

QJJ8, someone leads 3way and you have weak overpair + gutshot on flushdraw board. Just fold. Third player goes over the top, this should be snapfold.

Didn't go further, but these go along the with some of the hands you have posted in the forum. Clear mistakes preflop, and overplaying hands postflop. And I don't think that is even an opinion, I don't think there is a winning player on this planet that would agree that most of the above hands are well played.

Now the interesting part is, how do you react to this feedback? What I have seen in the forums during my years with poker, there are usually three ways to react:
Denial: skip feedback, and hold the thought that hands were well played. With this, there will never be progress.
Semi-acceptance: Accepting the truth that in those hands there were some mistakes, but hanging on to the thought that overall startegy is still good. Usually, there will be no clear progress as the underlying truth about strategy is not fully accepted.
Acceptance: You take a critical look to your game and understand that your strategy is not good at the moment. And that is the reason why there are no good results.

If you choose the acceptance, then the next step is to figure out why you are playing in the way you are. Why open hands, that are not even close to opening by any method? Everyone has access to solver ranges for affordable price, or very close to solver ranges for free (PJ ranges). Even PPT rankings would help tremendously.

For postflop overplaying I would recommend Pokerjuice and just learn to define a range for opponent and check your equity and EV versus that range in the hands.

There's a lot of work, but the first step is to accept that the strategy you shoved in those (at least the first bunch, didn't look further) hands is not good. And not profitable poker.

edit. Squeezing with Jd8h6c5h? In PPT rankings that hand is at bottom 57%. I am curious, what makes you think that bloating the pot with that crap is a good play? I get it if you get monkey tilted and just pot pre anything, but you posted those hands to show that you are NOT tilting. From where have you learned your preflop ranges? Any idea how much you should 3bet vs. MP open, CO call from the BTN normally? And how much it affects your preflop strategy if MP opens 30% instead of 20%?

Only quick one as I only have three minutes:
I was about to post that it is not about the big pots usually but here they really seem to be a problem. Kyyberi made a really good post above.
I agree with him. There are also fundamentals outside the technical bits like never bluff a donkey and not going crazy because someone else is playing crazy that I am missing in the hands. Will post more thoughts tonight...

Originally posted by Mascherano95
Because the battle is lost as soon as you give up. It´s not like I am making no progress at all and that I´d estimate at as a hopeless dream. So giving up is no option for sure. Poker is a passion to me. Like strategy games in general but poker is the way to go to financial freedom (contrary to chess or RTS-Games). Which side hustles do you mean? Some friends, one of it a former Mid-Stakes NLHE HU-Cash player, switched to Afiliate marketing. But that is even more dubious to me and I dont think getting rich is that easy and how much of the brags about lifestyle on social medie ie. is show-off and what´s real. I really think Poker is a serious opportunity to make it a easy living, but obviously it is a hard way to get there. If you jump on every train that looks promising you are getting no where.

Thank you very much for sharing all this. I don´t think you got my math example right about why I think working a bit additional in real life + studying more and playing way less poker would be beneficial judging by the numbers you posted. As reality already prove you wrong, why still playing so much poker instead of following JNandez advice? And why do you play when you are mentally tired after work? You are too tired to do theory but you are not too tired to play?

What would you tell someone who does affiliate marketing for multiple years, invests a lot of time and still earns not even 100$ a month? What would you tell a footballer who wants to make it as a pro but is already 30 years old, tries for years and never has played in the 6th league or above?

I was about to post that it is not about the big pots usually but here they really seem to be a problem. Kyyberi made a really good post above except I like the 3bet preflop with QQJT deep against a non-potsize openraise.
I agree with him and also with most of efkay´s analysis. And a lot of the other hands seem pretty poor at least preflop. The 3bet with 9765 OOP is a mistake but somewhat understandable (as overvalueing singlesuited rundowns is a common mistake) but squeezing J865 or AJ96 pre, calling a potsizeraise with overpair+gutter+little backdoors only with QJJ8, punting the stack off with Khi flush on J♥:T♥:8♥: against a potsize bet and a call...
There are also fundamentals outside the technical bits like never bluff a donkey and not going crazy because someone else is playing crazy that I am missing in the hands.
How do you see those hands yourself? Did you realise those things as poor plays while playing? And if so, why did you play them this way? And if not why did you play them against your better knowledge?

Good luck at the tables

Originally posted by tranceactor
punting the stack off with Khi flush on J♥:T♥:8♥: against a potsize bet and a call...

Is this really a punt vs a shortstack and a maniac? Hard to find a fold anyway and the maniac shove the low flush on paired turn.