Beating the 45 man SNG - Closing it out

  • Sit and Go
  • SNG
  • $11 - $16
(11 Votes) 9027

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Description

Collin continues his mini-series on how to beat the 45-man Sit & Go, with the second part moving into the mid stages of the tournament.

Tags

hand history review ICM mid stages

Comments (27)

newest first
  • EuanM

    #1

    Enjoy!
  • erlent

    #2

    the moshman is back :-)
  • deckner

    #3

    Thank you, great job once again!
    Only the 43o hand at 03:20 struck me ;-) but with the BigBlind so high compared to Villain's stack it is evident to the Munich guy :-)
  • onmybike

    #4

    Good vid on the first place :D. thx

    But I think you are doing thing wrong with the isoshoving stuff. I agree that a lot of players are to tight with Isopushing but when a spot pops up like that you just go to think al in CEV and forget that we are playing a final table imo.

    For explain the K10o on 02:10. It is really a bad isopush even KQo is a fold here It is pretty easy to calculate that and we need around more then 45% here because we play a final table. I have do some analyse on FT stuf and my conclusion of it when it is not a final table or close to a final table you can go really lose isopushing but when ICM and bubble factors are going in wide isopushing is a pretty big leak (what a lot of regs have on this limit).
  • onmybike

    #5

    Did look it up in nash that also see K10 is a clear fold.
    http://www.holdemresources.net/h/web-calculators/nashicm/results.html?action=calculate&bb=600&sb=300&ante=50&structure=31,21.5,16.5,12.5,9,6,3.5&s1=3148&s2=4980&s3=8014&s4=18407&s5=9960&s6=10767&s7=10674&s8=&s9=&s10=

    It is also very wrong to tink that UTG is desperate or what he has to be pretty tight and he has fold is way on final table for me no sign that he will go crazy now.
  • onmybike

    #6

    I do not think that you understand what kind of sick pay out 45 mans have.
    for explane on 04:39 you say that you go happy allin with AKo.
    For me (and Math :) ) it is a spot for crying. Ingame i think i cal but i am definitly not happy and cross my finger and revieuw it and se that it was better to fold this. Had the feeling when i see this hand that it was wrong i look it up to in nash and even Aks is fold with a pretty wide open push from UTG
    http://www.holdemresources.net/h/web-calculators/nashicm/results.html?action=calculate&bb=600&sb=1200&ante=75&structure=31,21.5,16.5,12.5,9,6,3.5&s1=12864&s2=20307&s3=10260&s4=8392&s5=7899&s6=1723&s7=5530&s8=&s9=&s10=
  • erlent

    #7

    @ onmybike

    In the K10 hand you said there´s no reason to shove wider.
    Disregarding the nash range, there are reasons why the utg pusher has to push a wider range.

    -next time he has to pay the big blind

    -future game : he loses his foldequity after he paid bb and sb, and has 1848 chips left.

    What do you tink about a shoving range of 25% :-)
  • onmybike

    #8

    @erlant

    Yes i did not say that there are no reasons why UTG should be pushing wide i say that UTG fold his way on final table and if you not have stats that he is reg i think that you do not have to think he wil pushing wide here.

    I think when you deviate from nash here what i understand for some kind of players 25% seems pretty good something around 22+, A2s+, K6s+, Q8s+, J9s+, T9s, A8o+, K9o+, QTo+, JTo
    (25,49%)
    But even then maybe you can push KQ but K10o is in no way a push here.
    But i agree with your thinking.
  • Ryusei

    #9

    Nice videos series, I like a lot this format dividing in 3 small parts, it’s easier to watch.

    #4, #5 Very interesting point. (the K10o on 02:10)
    The nash link you posted is clear fold to the 19.8% utg pushing range.
    Collin is saying that he has very wide pushing range, he is desperate because he is going to be blind out. You can see another example of utg short stack shoving wide range on 9:22.
    But still I agree with onmybike, better fold on that spot, for 2 reason:
    - The Malavan_AA’s (big blind) stack size is similar to hero, so if he call we are dead.
    - Is the beginning of final table, we have comfortable stack, not committed to the pot, better fold and choose another spot to risk the stack.
  • Ryusei

    #10

    complementing…
    If we ware siting on big blind, we can call.
    If we were short stack but larger than utg it’s great spot to double up.
    If we ware short stack smaller than utg, better fold.
    If the big blind ware short stack, it’s great spot to iso-shove.
  • Ryusei

    #11

    complementing…
    If hero was sitting on big blind, have odds to call.
    If hero was short stack but larger than utg it’s great spot to double up.
    If hero was short stack smaller than utg, better fold.
    If the big blind was short stack, it’s great spot to iso-shove.
  • onmybike

    #12

    @Ryusei
    yeah agree on most part but on 9:22 is really different spot he is CO and 4 way and is other player.
    Collin use: ok we have profitable open push and we have good odds with overlay vs the range. This rule is more for beginning player who can not solve diffucult problems yet in there head. And this rule is not working on spot were there are bubble factor and ICM were most FI spot are based on FE what you never have with Iso pushing.
  • CollinMoshman

    #13

    Thanks for the comments and feedback Erlent, Deckner, Onmybike and Ryusei. I'm glad the video started a good strategy discussion on iso-shoving!

    Onmybike, I agree on the point that we can't think just in terms of cEV when assessing whether we'd have a profitable call vs initial shover here, even for smaller fractions of our stack as in this case. With that said, while it is a closer spot than I had realized, I stand by this iso-shove. As Erlent says, Villain should be willing to take a negative edge here rather than get blinded out. Our breakeven point (depending on the bb's calling range) is roughly when UTG shoves 33%. Many regs will be shoving substantially wider than that, but I believe it's reasonable to assume that a sub-4bb rec player ITM and about to get crippled by the big blind will shove this wide.

    I'm happy to discuss this further, and either way, thank you for the incisive comments and analysis.
  • onmybike

    #14

    Collin, i think you underestimate the big bubble factor in 45 mans even when you are already ITM. For example 3:28 i know why it is a standard spot to cal here for you as an overall good sit en go player but this kind of calls are not good in 45 mans because of the big bubble. 43o is a clear fold here and you can even only cal 70%. And here is absolut no reason why villian wil push wider (maybe even the opposite) then nash because of the guy right from him who will be earlyer hitting the blinds.

    http://www.holdemresources.net/h/web-calculators/nashicm/results.html?action=calculate&bb=1200&sb=600&ante=75&structure=31,21.5,16.5,12.5,9,6,3.5&s1=9924&s2=3148&s3=3430&s4=13089&s5=18207&s6=8160&s7=9217&s8=&s9=&s10=
  • onmybike

    #15

    About the iso-push the spot on 9:22 I really like because now it is only 1/6 of hours stack but the spot on 2:10 is 1/3 of our stack and really important chips because when we lose we are the short-middle-stack and we can not get pressure on other people as we did now.
    Plus we have to take in action this orbit after a cal and lose because it is not good (maybe after blind increase) to let the BB past us + we losing to much FE.
  • erlent

    #16

    thank you onmybike and collin for the anwers, great content
  • Pavelll3

    #17

    Спасибо)
  • bobbywelsh

    #18

    Thanks Colin, very good
  • jaiiito

    #19

    how should be the stats of a regular player? VPIP PFR cbet and other.. thanks..
    Great vid..
  • CollinMoshman

    #20

    Thanks Bobbywelsh and Jaiiito, glad you guys enjoyed the video!

    In terms of stats, many regs will show stats of something roughly like 16/14, but it depends a lot on stage of the game, whether we're talking about filtered or unfiltered (which would include HU/SH and be looser), as well as style. . If you start a thread in the SNG forum I'm happy to discuss in more detail.
  • aafrancis

    #21

    great video :)

    i want more of these 45 men :)
  • Yoghurt1973

    #22

    Hi Collin/posters,

    Thanks for the vid and interesting comments.

    I'm just trying out the 45's and 180's and i've noticed that SitNgoWizard deviated very much from Nash.

    I think i have been shoving much to wide since Wizard suggest so on the tight calling ranges.

    So basically i think i should go for Nash in the first instance and adjust accorrding to reads, hence tighter/wider caller or shover.

    More or less wiht Nash you go less wrong than with Wizard, right?
  • Yoghurt1973

    #23

    PokerStars NLHE Tournament, ($2.28+$0.22), t500/t1000/t100 blinds, 7 handed, 30%/20%/11.9%/8%/6.5%/5%/3.5%/2.6%/1.7% payouts
    [url=http://www.sngwiz.com]Hand exported from the SitNGo Wizard.[/url] [url=http://www.sngwiz.com/tiki/Import+Hand+from+Message+Board]How to import this hand into the SitNGo Wizard.[/url]
    [COLOR="White"]{Tournament|PokerStars|2.28|0.22|500|1000|100|180-Man}[/COLOR]
    UTG: t10820 9.8 BBs[COLOR="White"]{Player|UTG|10820|Fold|100}[/COLOR]
    UTG+1: t18286 17 BBs[COLOR="White"]{Player|UTG+1|18286|Fold|100}[/COLOR]
    UTG+2: t18515 17 BBs[COLOR="White"]{Player|UTG+2|18515|Fold|100}[/COLOR]
    CO: t4235 3.8 BBs[COLOR="White"]{Player|CO|4235|Fold|100}[/COLOR]
    [b]Hero: t8620 7.8 BBs[/b][COLOR="White"]{Player|Hero|8620|Th|8h}[/COLOR]
    SB: t2623 2.4 BBs[COLOR="White"]{Player|SB|2623|Fold|100}[/COLOR]
    BB: t28475 26 BBs[COLOR="White"]{Player|BB|28475|Fold|100}[/COLOR]

    [b]Preflop:[/b] Hero is BTN with T:heart:8:heart:
    4 folds, [b]Hero?[/b]

    Opponent calling ranges when hero pushes:
    SB (37+), BB (16+)
  • Yoghurt1973

    #24

    Please delete this post and one above, link is not working sorry.
  • LiverpoolForever

    #25

    Видео хуевое
  • LiverpoolForever

    #26

    This is very very wrong video! Worst game in the world!!!
  • panpankracy

    #28

    looks very loose for micro limits