Gold Academy: Facing A Raise in Middle Position

  • NL BSS
  • NL BSS
  • $25 - $50
  • Shorthanded
(22 Votes) 9287

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Description

In the next Gold Academy Video one of our top coaches oblioo takes us through facing a raise when in Middle Position which is a situation he feels many regs at low stakes have leaks in

Tags

preflop thematic video Theory Video

Comments (29)

newest first
  • Boomer2k10

    #1

    Hi All

    Please enjoy the next video for the Gold Academy from oblioo

    If you have any questions/comments for Dustin please leave them here and enjoy!
  • MoneyStef

    #2

    Nice video, very clear! I really like the new videos coming out lately on PS, keep them coming please.
  • DrDunne

    #3

    nice vid thanks :)

    question about flatting with AKs and QQ pre... i know it's pretty standard to backraise with these but something i've been noticing at 10nl is people really don't seem to be squeezing light vs a UTG raise + MP call. people aren't 3bet bluffing enough vs UTG and they don't seem to be squeezing enough either so i'm really not too happy about 4betting... i still do it mostly because there's a ton of dead money by that point. i guess the main point is about picking up the dead money right?

    also are you backraising all in or making a normal 4bet? ty
  • super1

    #4

    A very nice Video:-)
  • w34z3l

    #5

    lol, bluffing with AKo, loved it
  • oblioo

    #6

    thanks for the feedback guys :)

    @3: I would recommend probably just flatting a squeeze with AKs and QQ, because, like you said, people probably are not squeezing very light, which means a) you can't get value by 4betting those hands, and b) when they ARE squeezing as a bluff, you have their bluffing range (AJ, AQ, KQ, KJ, QJ, etc.) dominated with those hands, so it's better to see a flop and make more money post-flop then just collect a bit of dead money from hands that you dominate.

    @5: not sure if sarcasm? "bluffing" is maybe not the best way to put it; it's more like "collecting dead money, avoiding an awkward and potentially -EV spot, getting some players to fold better hands (i.e. pocket pairs), and possibly getting value from a weaker player"
  • barbeysize

    #7

    so the idea is to 3bet 5% from which 0.5% is for value?
  • oblioo

    #8

    it's more like 20% value, or if you wanted to just fold hands like AJo that'd be okay and would obv reduce your 3b range, but I think it's usually +ev to 3bet. Also like I said if people start to play back then you can change your ranges.
  • barbeysize

    #9

    if it's profitable to 3bet AJo then it's probably profitable to 3bet anytwo? well ok, let's say 50% :)

    if we talking about default approach i think it should be more like balanced 3bet with ~50-55% bluff unless you consider default reg opponent as a straightforward nit with high fold to 3bet.
  • oblioo

    #10

    @9: You wrote, "if it's profitable to 3bet AJo then it's probably profitable to 3bet anytwo? well ok, let's say 50%"

    This is not good logic. First of all, AJo has nice blockers, secondly, there are still 4 players left to act behind you, and finally if you start 3betting 50% then obviously people will start to catch on and adjust.

    Note that I am not suggesting a GTO approach at 50NL; in fact I am suggesting the opposite based on the current state of the games. Everyone at 50NL and below makes so many mistakes that you are missing out on a lot of equity by not trying to exploit them at least to some extent. Also, if someone sees that you are 3betting ~4.8% from MP, it's not like they're going to go crazy vs. your 3bets, and they're usually not going to realize how bluff-heavy your range is.
  • barbeysize

    #11

    AJo has nice blockers to folding part of opening range (AT, A9s, A5s- etc) too. so FE diffrnc from AJo to K8s or 74s not that big and K8s or 74s has better equity vs any reasonable calling range. so if opp 4bets or folds oop and folds often enough to make AJo bluff +EV then it means we can actualy bluff anytwo and even if he calls vs 3bet oop then some hands from that hypothetical 50% range even better than AJo in terms of equity and playability.

    and 4.8% 3bet with only half AA and KK for value (wich is 0.45%) is already way out of line in terms of exploitablility :) but even if we 3bet some dude in some position very often it's not that obvious anyway - it's just evey one of tens of actual hands and he plays maybe 5-10 times more the same time.
  • oblioo

    #12

    You are forgetting about the blocker value AJo has vs. everyone else at the table. If we 3bet with 74s, CO can still have AA. BTN can still have AA. SB or BB can still have AA. This is important when constructing your MP range.

    Of course playing exploitatively is theoretically exploitable; I am just telling you what I think is ~optimal in most current small stakes games. It sounds like you disagree, and that's okay :)
  • Muttermal

    #13

    Great video, really provided me with some new insight, thanks!
  • barbeysize

    #14

    as I said AJo is blocking other hands like A2-AJ which all that opponents will fold vs our 3bet vs UTG.

    with AJ we have somthn like 96.9% FE vs each opp behind and with K8 we have ~96.4. so it's around 88% total FE vs 4 opps vs 86%. with K8s we have much more equity if UTG calls though.
  • oblioo

    #15

    You wrote, "with K8s we have much more equity if UTG calls though."

    This obviously depends on UTG's calling range, and it's almost never "much" more equity with K8s. For example, if UTG's flatting range is: 99-KK, AJs+, KQs+, AQo+, then AJo has more equity vs. that range than K8s. Even if we remove KQs from that range, the equities are ~identical, but AJ will probably play better because it can make better pairs, which is more important with shallower stacks. All that PLUS the fact that, like you pointed out, we have more fold-equity preflop with AJ, inclines me to prefer 3betting AJ over K8s. I also prefer 3betting better suited connectors (98s, JTs, QJs) over K8s, because those will also have more equity and play better.

    What do you think MP cold-calling and 3-betting ranges should look like at 50NL?
  • pleno1

    #16

    Great discussions guys and a great topic. Fully agree with you dustin.
  • barbeysize

    #17

    different ranges, different equity, yes. less AK, less KK, less KQ, less mid pockets like 99 and here we go - K8s/74s has more eq than AJo :)

    you see, your supposed calling range + value 4bet range + bluff 4bet range looks like 6%+ so this means UTG defends vs 3bet pretty good. doesnt look like that common exploiteable nity micro reg. unless he has huge postflop leaks we aware of but thats hole different story...

    so as a default vs default tight UTG WITHOUT huge fold to 3bet leak i'd say 3bet KK+ (often, not 50%) for value and AQo, AJs as bluff. and coldcall AK, AQs, QQ-66, maybe QJs, JTs, T9s, maybe not.
  • oblioo

    #18

    ^ that seems fine to me as a more balanced strategy, especially vs. someone with a particularly tight UTG range.
  • barbeysize

    #19

    btw 3bet 5% on average MPvsUTG on 100nl myself
  • w34z3l

    #20

    Further to my comments about bluffing with AKo.

    Certainly not sarcasm - I think your points are very valid. I also think you are correct.

    I loved it because think it takes courage to talk about bluffing with AKo preflop. That's clearly something that most people are instantly going to want to flame.

    Lots of players may 3bet AK vs UTG but it's clearly for value. I rarely value-raise here but might mix in a few more bluffs with stronger hands now.

    I've also noticed that when holding AK vs tight ranges it's possible to have even more equity vs the range that continues vs3bet - if for whatever reason villain folds a bunch of the smaller PP's but leaves broadway range in tact.
  • Yozan

    #21

    at nl100 people stack off with AK and QQ mp vs utg, because most of the regs have a 4b bluff range in utg. you didnt talk too much about 3betting AKo as a bluff, but i am curios what you would do vs someone with a fold to 3bet of 55% and a 4b range of 4%, do you still 3bet fold AK? it seems to me very weak. i find a better strategy to 3bet/stack off QQ+AK vs somone who 4bets enough and flatting KK,AA than 3bet/stack off KK+, because there arent too many hands that the utg can call with, so we lose a lot of value. or to put it this way: what stats the utg should have for you to 3bet/stack off AK/QQ for value?
  • DjolusVicenus

    #22

    how would you play QQ from sb/bb? Still using the same koncept of flating, or 3beting in order?

    One more question please...

    I play on regional poker site, Serbians, Croatians, etc, there you rearly see 3beting and i am geting constant calinng on my every raise.

    Its much more common to be in 3,4,5 ppl that called my raise...

    So how do I adust to that kind of play?

    i play 0.5/0.10

    On site its possibe to sit with 200bb, how whould you use that in your advantige?
  • JediAreEvil

    #23

    wow, great video, one of the best lately in my opinion, nh :D
  • oblioo

    #24

    @19: Sounds reasonable, that's pretty much what I'm suggesting.

    @20: Thank you, and yes that is an interesting/good point about having more equity vs. a calling range when you 3bet AK.

    @21: It seems like you are only considering two options when faced with a 4bet: fold or shove. But remember there is a third option: call. If we have AK in MP, UTG opens to 3x, we 3bet to 8x, and UTG 4bets to ~19x, I would assume that we dominate UTG's bluffing range with AK and QQ, which he would fold if we shove, so I would generally tend to flat and try to win more money postflop.

    @22: First question: it depends on villain--sometimes flat and sometimes 3bet, probably leaning towards a 3bet. Second question: again, it depends on how they are playing post-flop, among other things. But generally you'll probably just have to be a bit less aggressive post-flop and wait for strong hands to value-bet with. Third question: way too complicated to answer here (and, no offense, but really not relevant), but I would buy in for 200bb and outplay my opponents because most players have significant leaks when deep.

    @23: thanks :)
  • Yozan

    #25

    i excluded the option of calling with AKo ip because we dont have initiative, and 2/3 of the time we dont hit the board, but if we shove we have close to 40% equity + some fold equity in order to make it at least a 0 ev play. your strategy is very intersting, but i am not sure if calling 4b ip makes it more + ev, though it's possible if you know what to do postflop. the probability to hit a pair when we dominate the utg is the same with that of hitting a set, so most of the time we either hit when he doesnt (and vice versa)or we both dont hit. So, what it's your plan when you dont hit the board, do you peel every flop, or there are boards you almost always fold.
  • oblioo

    #26

    @25: I almost never fold post-flop when I flat a 4bet with AKo 100bb deep. What I do depends on the board and opponent, but like I said very rarely fold.
  • iNspiRe

    #27

    Hello there, oblioo. Great video! Here are few questions from russian community:

    1. What should we do with AKo if opponent 4-bets?

    2. What would you do if you placed a 4-bet bluff in UGT with KJ, got one call and a board with K and J.

    Thanks
  • tellmama

    #28

    One of the downsides of just calling AJ,AQ,KQ,KJ you gave in the video was that they win small pots, but lose big pots.
    To put it more strictly: if you win, you tend to win small,if you lose, you tend to lose big.
    But if you just play small pots and avoid playing big pots, you still have +EV with these hands. A better reason to 3bet at least with AQ and AJ here seems to me to avaoid exploitabilty with a too narrow range in this spot.
  • ConteCaly

    #29

    wonderful video... thanks