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[Closed] Problem: stuck in the micros

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eteris
Joined: 26.08.2007

Originally posted by cauelaratta
I´m gonna post a few hands I found interesting. Please help me find any leaks.

Hand 1: My doubt in this hand is about the size of my flop bet. I hit the nuts on the flop and raise pot size to try to get some of the 5 :f_eek: villain t fold. Guy reraises, I move all in and lose. Was the raise size corect, considering the number of players involved and flush draw board?

Hand converted with online PokerStrategy.com hand converter:

Play hand

$0.02/$0.04 No-Limit Hold'em (7 handed)

Known players:
[tg]CO (Hero)$1.60:///////;BU$2.22:///////;SB$2.17:///////;BB$0.62:///////;MP1$1.94:///////;MP2$1.56:///////;MP3$3.33:///////;[/tg]

Preflop: Hero is CO with 6:h, 2:c.
Hero posts deadblind, MP1 calls $0.04, MP2 calls $0.04, MP3 calls $0.04, Hero checks, BU folds, SB calls $0.02, BB checks.

Flop: ($0.24) 3:c, 5:s, 4:s (6 players)
SB checks, BB checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks, MP3 checks, Hero bets $0.23, SB raises to $0.68, BB folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, Hero raises to $1.56, SB calls $0.88.

Turn: ($3.36) 5:c (2 players)

River: ($3.36) K:c (2 players)

Final Pot: $3.36.
Results follow:

SB shows a flush, king high(7:c 6:c).
Hero shows a straight, six high(6:h 2:c).

SB wins with a flush, king high(7:c 6:c).

well you didn't hit nuts on the flop...


_Anonymous_ Topic starter
_Anonymous_

Hand 4: Raise preflop, hit nothing, standard cbet, villain calls. I follow my intuition and fire a 2nd barrel, putting him on a flush draw. Was that an unecessary risk?

OBS: Later I checked his stats at PTR --- Loose 84% , Agr 87% , Showdown 92% --- and concluded I shouldn´t have done that

Hand converted with online PokerStrategy.com hand converter:

Play hand

$0.02/$0.04 No-Limit Hold'em (9 handed)

Known players:
[tg]BB (Hero)$1.60:///////;UTG1$2.22:///////;UTG2$3.77:///////;MP1$0.78:///////;MP2$2.07:///////;MP3$1.21:///////;CO$2.06:///////;BU$1.60:///////;SB$2.92:///////;[/tg]

Preflop: Hero is BB with K:c, A:d.
5 folds, CO calls $0.04, BU folds, SB calls $0.02, Hero raises to $0.20, CO calls $0.16, SB folds.

Flop: ($0.44) 7:s, 7:h, J:s (2 players)
Hero bets $0.31, CO calls $0.31.

Turn: ($1.06) 6:c (2 players)
Hero bets $0.75, CO folds, Hero gets uncalled bet back.

Final Pot: $1.06.


taavi1337
Joined: 29.05.2009

you should post the hands in the appropriate section where professional judges can help you


gadget51
Joined: 23.06.2008

H1; Hero posts the dead blind = trouble!
Biggest problem here is the limped pot, you rarely know where your at in these as they could have any two (and did).

H2; Hero posts the dead blind = wait a minute! Pattern here? In thewords of Rolf Harris; 'Can ya tell what it is yet?' :)
It's a terrible flop, but being agressive I'd likely go for a check/raise and fold to a push. If he calls I go passive and could fold river. Watch how fast they bet, they usually can't wait to get it all in with a big hand.
However, on the turn your JJ were a monster (about 80% ish?) and it's easy go broke there for me.

It took me a long time to be able to fold an overpair on any board as well by the way, but sometimes folding AA is easy now (sometimes! :)).

H3; I wouldn't fold 99 there either most times. You had about 25% equity I think on the flop with a gutshot and 2nd pair 99. I'd have called the flop cbet in this particular case and folded turn no hit.

Just a last thought. Every time they suckout I count my winnings. It sounds odd but it's true because the times they don't will far outway the times they do, it just doesn't feel like that sometimes. :)

I'm no expert by the way, but I hope this helped a bit.


Coach
w34z3l
Joined: 03.08.2009

Nice thread cauelaratta.

Occasionally I will be watching a training vid and the coach might say something like, "but I wouldn't do this at micro-stakes". I often end up wondering if that coach has ever even played at micro stakes.

It certainly seems that the bottom micro-stakes are in a world of their own, and not purely because they are "easier". Bad beat threads appear all over the place regarding micro-stakes, and despite "you need to improve your game" or "quit whining" being the stock response, the loser in this case may often continue to insist their downswing is a product of the bad play of others. Really? Isn't this a paradox? Surely you want your opponents to be as bad as possible?

I'd say perhaps not. As caulelaratta pointed out earlier in the thread, you can no longer rely upon your opponents to make logical decisions. As a result your prediction skills will suffer. You can no longer say "I have x% of fold equity on the turn because it would be a logical fold for this percentage of his range" , if your opponent simply is too bad to know he should fold. Moves on various streets typically representative of certain hand-ranges cease to exist at the meta-level when playing against these players.
How does this relate to downswings however? In general I believe it is simply a case of how willing people are to get to an allin showdown. At micro stakes, against a table of people who will never fold, your variance has to be much higher. You need to get all-in a lot more often to reach showdown, and depending on how loose the players at your table are, this showdown might be against several players. At slightly higher stakes where the players might generally be tighter, you can start to reap rewards through the fold equity you can gain. This means the pots you play will typically be smaller and reach showdown a lot less. You may slowly accumulate funds independent of the cards dealt, since showdown will be rarer and you can't be sucked out on either if it isn't reached.

So, what is the answer to all of this? Firstly, I believe playing against slightly better players may be a more reliable method of winning money, simply because it entails less variance. You can also make more advanced moves at the meta-level, i.e doing something because you know they know about a certain poker concept. However, playing against bad players will still likely be more +EV for the sheer volume of times you are going to stack them with a better hand, even if you go on extended periods of getting sucked out on. Imo the key is to be aware of player types, and preferably use stats to help you with this. If they are going to be calling every cbet of yours, stop cbetting air or be prepared to double barrel etc etc Perhaps the wider variety of different playing types at the micros pool make this kind of player-type strategy even more necessary. As a very general rule, this style will often be abc TAG as mentioned earlier in the thread, as you simply won't be able to get away with looser moves against certain players at the micros.

I know people who have broken even at 5nl for ages, and suddenly started winning at 50nl. Ideally, you should be a better player to play at 50nl than 5nl, but the irony is that some people's style will beat 50nl but not micros. That is why imo it is extremely important to be adaptable in your playing style, allowing you to beat any limit. So long as you are capable of this, there is no reason why 5nl shouldn't be easier to beat than 50nl, I just think people should be aware of the variance bad players can create.

Just one last thought. Imagine if you had a HU match with Phil Ivey the next day and you'd never played a hand of poker in your life. What would be the best strategy? Shove all in every hand perhaps? :f_cool: Any attempt to play good poker will probably mean you get owned. Shoving all in every hand means its down to chance rather than any edge Phil can create. In other words, even if you are playing very bad poker, you can do so in a way that hinders your opponent the most. Perhaps this is what some microstakes players end up doing non-intentionally.

I won't be offended if you tl;dr :f_biggrin:

w34z3l


I agree with that guy who wrote about trying different poker types as other kinds of poker or SNG/MTT. I thought I'd play cash games too, but then I managed to solve myself out and found that I'm way better at SNG's. Try other, find your way.

Xidjo


I play SnG's an i started at $1 and found as i moved upto $2 then $5 my ROI improved the higher the stakes i was playing. I'm not sure if thats sound advice for cash games but for sure i find it alot less stressful against poor players than clueless players. Just try taking a break after a few bad beats you should only play poker when you enjoy it,if it becomes a painful chore you should take a break until you get excited about it again.GL in the future! =)


you dont have to play tight just value bet value value bet. Dont bluff


I personally found microstakes CG players on major sites (FT,PS) more aware some basic concepts then on the other sites (PKR i.e.)


i dont think playing with 100BB on the micros is that profitable...
i think its much better if you have 20BB, wait for your monster and get your money in the middle early in the hand
if you play with 100BB and you have AK and some player calls your raise to 4BB with 95 offsuit then they have good implied odds against you which makes his call not so -EV.
lets say you hit an ace on the flop...
the guy with 95 is not really gonna pay you with anything
he wants to get luky that one time and when he hits trip 5's or 2 pair he will stack your top pair
maybe i'm wrong though since i think i lost more than i won with BSS,
but SSS, SnG's and mtts worked well for me


_Anonymous_ Topic starter
_Anonymous_

Originally posted by MathhNes
you dont have to play tight just value bet value value bet. Dont bluff

I don´t think that´s a good advice, because that´s pretty much what my opponents do all the time. They sit there, play 90% of their hands, bet when they have it, call when they´re on a draw (any kind of), fold when they hit nothing. If I want to have an advantage, I have to play different from them. The articles teaches us to balance our gameplay. If villain plays too much hands, tighten up. I´d say that´s the first step in adapting the game to the micros. I win a lot of hands because of strong kickers (when villain doesn´t hit two pair AND when I have the guts to call their all-in, knowing they´re probably playing a marginal hand --- this is a kind of tough decision you have to make all the time when playing micros).

That leads to "step number two", if I could say so. I think the second most important thing would be to know your opponents well, using PTR or a tracking program. That sure helps a lot, specially to identify the "LAG" ones. These are usually the most difficult to deal with. They play a lot of hands very agressively. They move all-in with bottom pair and often get you to fold better hands. Sometimes, when confronted with these kinds of tough calls, i let the timer run and consult villain stats on PTR. If I identify him as a donkey LAG or maniac, I usually call and usually win. But that´s always very risky.

These are two things that helped a lot. I´m still testing some other stuff, like raising extra big preflop to scare limpers off the hand (seems to work well). I´ll report soon.

Feel free to discuss and make more suggestions.

C.


NightFrostaSS
Joined: 25.10.2008

Originally posted by Leito99
i dont think playing with 100BB on the micros is that profitable...
i think its much better if you have 20BB, wait for your monster and get your money in the middle early in the hand
if you play with 100BB and you have AK and some player calls your raise to 4BB with 95 offsuit then they have good implied odds against you which makes his call not so -EV.
lets say you hit an ace on the flop...
the guy with 95 is not really gonna pay you with anything
he wants to get luky that one time and when he hits trip 5's or 2 pair he will stack your top pair
maybe i'm wrong though since i think i lost more than i won with BSS,
but SSS, SnG's and mtts worked well for me

It doesn't have anything to do with micros but much more with your logic being incorrect. If your opponent is waiting for two pairs or better to stack off then it's a losing play to be going all in with one pair hand vs him. 100bb+ poker is different from shallow stacked SSS/SNG poker and requires much deeper though process than "omg TPTK allin!".


I think posting hands its the very best way to learn, may be you read but dont pay really good atenttion try to play more hands and less study


Play straight ABC poker and you should win at Micro levels. You can't get unlucky for very long.

Try to appreciate your opponents' misconceptions and bad plays. Even when you suffer a bad beat, try to think on all the EV you won in that hand. Believe me, you will miss all the bad players when you keep moving up in stakes.

It is important not to tilt, and this might be the most difficult thing to do at the beginning of your career.


Meemawuk
Joined: 27.05.2009

I have been floating NL2 NL4 and NL10 recently, trying to move up the stakes. I play a LAGy game at NL2 and NL4 and raise a LOT of pots with position becuase there is frequently a lot of dead money from limpers and very often a C-bet is enough to take it down post-flop. The play is a lot more refined at NL10 and its nowhere near as easy to make people fold hands that haven't hit the flop.

I am in no way advocating that people move up stakes without the proper bankroll, I myself have taken shots, but still have a LOT of leaks in my game and they're often exploited by NL10 players. For instance, I still find it hard to fold TPTK on any board unless its very straight/flushy, and I run into sets to lose a stack soooo often.

I have read some good advice on this forum about playing micros. Stick to the strategies and you'll break through eventually. At least this is what I'm hoping for!


Ultifanatic
Joined: 08.04.2008

cauelaratta, do you play with a HUD of any kind?

Also, with the hands you posted....first off as someone else mentioned, putting the blinds in before the blind comes around to you shows one glaring leak, which might sound harsh. But if you do not have the disipline to way till the blinds get to you to start playing, then you are already way behind on disipline to play good poker. Being lazy on little things like this lend themselves into being lazy on other little things and all those little things avalanch into much larger problems/leaks that are very hard to overcome at the tables.

As for your posted hands...1st hand withthe 62o. You did not flop the nuts...you bet the pot on the flop with 5 other players in the pot on a very draw heavy board. Not horrible to bet the flop if you have some notion that all those limpers will fold but at the same time did you think that if 1 player calls you the likelyhood that more will call and now you are playing a very large pot with a hand that will not improve? Now for the reraise, what did you put the reraiser on in a limped pot? Not a high PP or AJ+, so most likely a straight draw, flush draw, two pair etc or in this case a better straight that you with a backdoor flush draw. SOmething that sooo many NL4 players with play ALL the time and you will not get them off. Your reraise all in looks like you were thinking about your hand and not his...you have a good made hand on the flop and you deserve the pot...etc.
You can do much better than this hand at the NL4 stakes...KNow to let go and know what they will NOT fold.

Next hand the JJs. YOu bet the JJs large preflop, which is fine. With no stats on the CO in position on you, there is a lot he could be looking to play. With stats you can narrow it down alot...the Flop comes rainbow wich is nice, but it is a the bottom tale end of ALOT of drawing hands. You bet the Flop quite large, when I think a half pot bet will tell you alot here. If they stay you can shut down on the Turn but since you bet large and have only half your stack on the turn it is a much harder decision plus he only has half his stack as well then and can fell the "what the hell factor of the microstakes". But even with the large bet, you get called which should sounds lots of bells from you are way ahead, to you are ahead but in trouble if the Turn connects, to you are WAY behind. Then you fire on the Turn when there is a flush draw, a straight flush draw, a hugh straight draw and tons of 2 pair possibilities. This is when your 80 cents can not push anyone around anymore since the pot is sooo large plus the what the hell factor. This is a major leak in your game i think, since "THE ONLY PLAYER THAT WILL CALL YOU IS BEATING YOU OR CAN EASILY BEAT YOU ON THE FLOP". Even in the micros you have to know what to slow down on your hand.
You can do much better than this with boards like this....

Ok the 99 hand. Hrmmm well my opinion of 9s is that they are evil. They can be great for set mining and they can be a nightmare as well. Up to you to decide if your guy can handle the loses you get with set mining 9s. But this hand, it is real simple. You called an extra 12 cents for no reason. It is a bad play to call a 3bet with 9s at NL4, since 3bets are almost always premium hands or maniacs when you will have a hard time not folding the flop. Set mining against a normal raise at the micros is fine, but trying to out flop JJ+,AQ+ is not easy when that 1 over cards flops. Do not get this fancy at the NL2 stakes, fold your PPs to a Reraise....
You can easily do better which low to mid PPs in a 3bet preflop hand...

Last hand, the AKo. I actually do not see too much wrong with this hand at NL4. I think the worst thing you can do with this hand is what you mentioned in your comments. Stop putting people on draws....start putting people on hand ranges NOT types. A range is the CO could be playing Ax, Axs, 78s+, 22+, JTo+ is what I would figure by not having ANY stats on this villian. He has position, these are MONSTER hands in lots of micro players minds and you have to think he is MORE of a donkey than a good player if you know nothing about them. So with that range, it is possible that he hit on the flop or is still drawing or at the very least is still sitting on an Ace. With your decent flop bet, the A high, the flush and the off suited straight draw is still possible since he called(even to face cards if he is a real donk). The 6 only really helps the off suited straight draw OR the A6 hand. So the Cbet on the turn is fine but it leaves you with nothing on the river, so I would actually just push here or bet something like 0.45 cents. If they did not hit and are not drawing 45 cents will still get them off, if they stay it is definetly a draw which if it does not get there on river by all means fire, if it does by all means shut down or bet small again. My over all gut would most likely be to push on the Turn though...
Better hand but looking for ranges and not hand types will help you alot...

Take 3-5 hands from every session and post them in the hand analysis forum...get some feed back. Write down what people say in a list format. Every time someone tells you something new, write it down to look at before you are playing and after when you are looking at your hands. BUT when you see someone mention something that has been mentioned to you before, mark a HUGE RED X beside that point and when you get 3 red X's you will then know you have a huge leak and you need to deal with it.


clawindsouza
Joined: 08.12.2009

Hey i was in the same position as u bout a month bak.... after playing for 3 months i was still at around 60$....i think just reading articles and videos helps....
like for me i realised i was chasing too much.... i started betting higher against ppl who draw...started playing according to my opponents play...soon i realised when to lay down some pretty strong hands when im close to the money....learnt when to play aggressive/tight at different stages of the tourney.... learnt a lot and suddenly went up to around 170$....
the fact that i tilted and lost 160 in the next two days is another thing:p

i think the micros are pretty easy after a while...i play the 1$ 45 player SnGs....i think wat helped me was playing the same tourneys again and again...helped me kinda master it..


I think to beat micros you need to play a bit like a fish.

Cause like for example in this hand , i know i only have 4 outs at best but he put in a fishy weak bet on turn so I decide to call and go for the suck out. I hit my 4 outer and get paid off heaps of money ( for micros lol )

then I leave the table because the player went on tilt and started raising every hand pre flop .. which is not what u want fish to do :)

notice i didnt raise this hand before flop .. I guess there is no point doing this . winning blinds isnt the secret , u want alot of players in the hand against drawing hands like A10 AK etc .. hands like AA u need to just get the money in asap or be willing to fold if u slowplay it and no one raises you.

I mean if i raised this hand b4 flop i might just win 3 cents . Instead I limped and won alot more than 3 cents :f_biggrin:

Hand converted with online PokerStrategy.com hand converter:

Play hand

$0.01/$0.02 No-Limit Hold'em (7 handed)

Known players:
[tg]MP3$1.97:///////;CO (Hero)$2.00:///////;BU$2.00:///////;SB$1.98:///////;BB$2.74:///////;MP1$2.32:///////;MP2$2.00:///////;[/tg]

Preflop: Hero is CO with A:d, T:c.
MP1 calls $0.02, 2 folds, Hero calls $0.02, 2 folds, BB checks.

Flop: ($0.07) J:h, Q:s, 2:h (3 players)
BB checks, MP1 checks, Hero checks.

Turn: ($0.07) 7:d (3 players)
BB bets $0.03, MP1 folds, Hero calls $0.03.

River: ($0.13) K:c (2 players)
BB bets $0.13, Hero raises to $0.39, BB calls $0.26.

Final Pot: $0.91.
Results follow:

Hero shows a straight, ace high(A:d T:c).
BB shows two pairs, queens and sevens(Q:d 7:h).

Hero wins with a straight, ace high(A:d T:c).


ljovej
Joined: 23.04.2009

Originally posted by cauelaratta

Originally posted by MathhNes
you dont have to play tight just value bet value value bet. Dont bluff

I don´t think that´s a good advice, because that´s pretty much what my opponents do all the time. They sit there, play 90% of their hands, bet when they have it, call when they´re on a draw (any kind of), fold when they hit nothing. If I want to have an advantage, I have to play different from them.

C.

???
What is different play?
3bet with 22 and they will fold aces.
Or maybe All in with low suited cards.
Just learn to fold and not to chase straights and flushes when bets are large.


ljovej
Joined: 23.04.2009

Originally posted by Grailer
I think to beat micros you need to play a bit like a fish.

Cause like for example in this hand , i know i only have 4 outs at best but he put in a fishy weak bet on turn so I decide to call and go for the suck out. I hit my 4 outer and get paid off heaps of money ( for micros lol )

then I leave the table because the player went on tilt and started raising every hand pre flop .. which is not what u want fish to do :)

notice i didnt raise this hand before flop .. I guess there is no point doing this . winning blinds isnt the secret , u want alot of players in the hand against drawing hands like A10 AK etc .. hands like AA u need to just get the money in asap or be willing to fold if u slowplay it and no one raises you.

I mean if i raised this hand b4 flop i might just win 3 cents . Instead I limped and won alot more than 3 cents :f_biggrin:

Hand converted with online PokerStrategy.com hand converter:

Play hand

$0.01/$0.02 No-Limit Hold'em (7 handed)

Known players:
[tg]MP3$1.97:///////;CO (Hero)$2.00:///////;BU$2.00:///////;SB$1.98:///////;BB$2.74:///////;MP1$2.32:///////;MP2$2.00:///////;[/tg]

Preflop: Hero is CO with A:d, T:c.
MP1 calls $0.02, 2 folds, Hero calls $0.02, 2 folds, BB checks.

Flop: ($0.07) J:h, Q:s, 2:h (3 players)
BB checks, MP1 checks, Hero checks.

Turn: ($0.07) 7:d (3 players)
BB bets $0.03, MP1 folds, Hero calls $0.03.

River: ($0.13) K:c (2 players)
BB bets $0.13, Hero raises to $0.39, BB calls $0.26.

Final Pot: $0.91.
Results follow:

Hero shows a straight, ace high(A:d T:c).
BB shows two pairs, queens and sevens(Q:d 7:h).

Hero wins with a straight, ace high(A:d T:c).

Moderators must must make new forum named "Stupid plays" and move there posts like this one is. _wink:


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