Check-Raise Bluff on the River

Hi!

I dont like it much. First of all because your line looks very spazy therefore bluffs are expected here.What is your value range here... due to flop not a pair,therefore not any kind of pair/pair/FH/set combo.weak flushes would not c/r,so only Kx,Ax flushes remain but these would mostly just bet here hope to get called by very likely 7x,weak flush or whatever.

BTN will never fold a flush here,not even trips or a straight.He may fold something like 7x but is he really betting it...as default I wouldnt say,he will check it behind as he has SD value

He may also fold hands like 89 no flush but I would say that he bets these on the turn again very often.
All in all if you want to bluff then just bet river but by far I like to just c/f since I doubt you make him fold much.

Yes, you are right judge.

Versus any normal opponent, you are very very right. This opponent is very very special. I just played this hand (below) versus her. Same logic for this hand, if I c-bet flop, she is all but guaranteed to take it away from me. In fact, the above hand sprung to mind, therefore I played it in a totally erratic way.

I promise not to do it again :).

She obviously takes pleasure in making "strong" laydowns. Her WTS is extremely low. I knew this from the stats, but mostly from observations. She could turn very aggressive on any one street and then snap fold to a bet or raise, something I used against her, but not in as extreme fashion as I have posted here. Those hands are admittedly goofy, but not that much minus EV given the reads I have.

Anyway, I guess the essence in the original question is if the C/R bluff on the river has a place at all in FL Holde'm.

/Johan =

Well I dont think that second hand has much to do the first one.
In the last one I dont see him making a big laydown but maybe something like small pair or gutshot or even air which he decided to bet to your check which usually means weakness. The thing is that you would be getting the same result vs most of these hands by just beting the flop..in this case I would do it 100%,also I dont like c/r flop moves as they are really hardly ever balanced

Sure river c/r bluff makes sense in FL but in games where people dont think about ranges and balance it is totally not needed and is just a spew most of the time.

Where people start thinking about what you are doing and start observing your play then sure you dont want always just c/r river for value but you want to have bluffs in your range as well

I haven't looked at the other hands, just the one at the OP.

Turn call is obv bad, but as played I'd donk the river. You're right, he doesn't have a club all that often, so I'd obv-donk all my flush here, maybe even trip 4s if I 3bet like A4 and stuff here, therefore I wanna have a donkbluffing range too, and since it's (beyond) the bottom of your range, we have to use this as such.

The problem with check/raising is that A) I'm not sure if I'm gonna check/raise this riv all that often, fearing I'm gonna miss value from hands like TP and such, that most players are too weak to vbet, B) his betting range will be stronger than average, and he'll fold probably less often. Of course if you have any reason to rather c/r this riv with your valuerange, I would fold QT, and bluff with hands with blockers to 2pairs or sets that I'd otherwise fold (maybe something like 87s or A5 or something).

Hero check/raise dosen't make any sense, and even more bet from the Villain.

As Villain i dont fold here any sd value, Hero x/r on river is ridicolous, and beacuse of that i want to see hand and catch his blufs. That x/r dosent make any sense.

But i completly don't understand Villains bet on river, that dosen't make any sense at all.

The problem is this: A read based, exploitative, rebluff when having tried to bluff earlier in the hand will always look spewy to the spectator. It's not like you can expect "Nice Yohan. Good rebluff!" ever. Particularly since reads are always ignored in such an evaluation. I have never seen reads used, posted stats yes, posted reads no. What one can expect is having the play explained to be wrong because of that the opposite of what my read says is true.

Yet, both GTO and balanced strategies dictate that rebluffs must exist.
I am quite happy the way I played versus this opponent. After all, I won the pots, and many like it.

/Johan =

Originally posted by YohanN7
The problem is this: A read based, exploitative, rebluff when having tried to bluff earlier in the hand will always look spewy to the spectator. It's not like you can expect "Nice Yohan. Good rebluff!" ever. Particularly since reads are always ignored in such an evaluation. I have never seen reads used, posted stats yes, posted reads no. What one can expect is having the play explained to be wrong because of that the opposite of what my read says is true.

Yet, both GTO and balanced strategies dictate that rebluffs must exist.
I am quite happy the way I played versus this opponent. After all, I won the pots, and many like it.

/Johan =

I agree with this and I love doing some weird plays that just feel so right, probably based on the gameflow/timing tells etc/your own current image I don't mind the play if you had the feeling/read that he's folding.. seeking for new bluff spots is really fun, you just need great self-awareness of what you're doing.

Originally posted by taavi1337

Originally posted by YohanN7
The problem is this: A read based, exploitative, rebluff when having tried to bluff earlier in the hand will always look spewy to the spectator. It's not like you can expect "Nice Yohan. Good rebluff!" ever. Particularly since reads are always ignored in such an evaluation. I have never seen reads used, posted stats yes, posted reads no. What one can expect is having the play explained to be wrong because of that the opposite of what my read says is true.

Yet, both GTO and balanced strategies dictate that rebluffs must exist.
I am quite happy the way I played versus this opponent. After all, I won the pots, and many like it.

/Johan =

I agree with this and I love doing some weird plays that just feel so right, probably based on the gameflow/timing tells etc/your own current image I don't mind the play if you had the feeling/read that he's folding.. seeking for new bluff spots is really fun, you just need great self-awareness of what you're doing.

I couldn't agree more. What I failed to say was that my opponent didn't do badly either. She undoubtedly fooled me in a number of hands where she without a doubt held utter trash versus my own trash. You can't win'em all :f_biggrin:. This is part of what makes poker into the greatest game there is.

/Johan =