Hello there

Originally posted by BroteusSK
Not to mention that going my bankroll only allows me 20 buy ins (0,5 euros minimum Sit'nGo) or using the stack strategy of no Limit, 5 buy ins (2 euros).

So what sugestions do you have for a newbie?

Hi BroteusSK,
Welcome to PokerStrategy.com

Be sure to check out the bonus offers or perhaps one of the free money offers — PokerStars isn't the only room to play on.

If you're just getting back into the game, I suggest reviewing No Limit Hold'em lessons overview articles first.

For SnGs, see https://www.pokerstrategy.com/strategy/sit-and-go/sng-lesson-overview/

If you have any questions, just post them in the Q&A forum.

All the best,
VS

I suggest the 25 and 50 cent "9-45 Man on Demand".

The 25 cents have a slow structure, perfect for getting a hang on things and low enough in cost to try overwhelming yourself once ot twice with opening as many tables as you can to see where is your multitabling limit.

Single table SNGs are a little bit tougher, higher raked and there is a risk some players may collude - that's the bad part of STTs.

The 45, 90 and 180 men SNGs are easier to mix up with each other and with other MTTs - like the $1 Bounty Builders on Demand. Your end goal should be to play tournaments and that's a perfect path of studying and moving up.

If you don't have much time for tournaments - check out spin n goes. There is a bunch of free very good materials on youtube, especially for the 25 cent and $1 games.

I wouldn't bother with cash games - they are harder at all levels and you can only open 4 tables at a time. And don't get me started about zoom... The only thing I can suggest is trying the 9man tables with the highest average VPIP and players/flop, and always sit in position to the loosest players. And play very tight. This is actually very easy but there isn't much room for improving and moving up unless you don't mind switching to 6max and studying very very very hard to start playing zoom.

When you get 20-30$ roll, if you are not afraid of learning new games, try the No Limit Omaha Hi-Lo 9man SNG KOs. The $1 ones are really soft despite the high rake...

GL

Thanks for the replies

Originally posted by nsavov
I wouldn't bother with cash games - they are harder at all levels and you can only open 4 tables at a time. And don't get me started about zoom... The only thing I can suggest is trying the 9man tables with the highest average VPIP and players/flop, and always sit in position to the loosest players. And play very tight. This is actually very easy but there isn't much room for improving and moving up unless you don't mind switching to 6max and studying very very very hard to start playing zoom.

GL

What about NL Hold'em?

Right now I only have one hour of lunch time plus 2 to 3 hours after work to study and play. I'm conflicted because it seems like NL is more flexible with my time, but I learned poker with friends playing pretty much SNG (without raising the blinds until we got tired), so I'm more familiar with it.

I am also afraid of studying different formats and becoming a jack of all trades but master of none. I wanted to dedicate myself to one format only, study one lesson (Pokerstrategy), play until becomes natural to me and move on to the next. But I am also looking for some day in the future to earn my own money, and I do not want to be limited because of the format I chose.

To be honest, I do not know most of the formats and things you said in your post :P, but I will research them.
PS: Zoom seems so unnatural, is there even live professional tounaments with this format?

We are talking about pokerstars and not playing live, right?

Ok, so by cash games I meant NL Holdem cash games which are mostly 6-player tables but at 1-2 cent there are 9-player tables running. Cash games are just difficult to build a bankroll with because the average player is a bit better than in tournaments, sit and goes and spin n goes. And if you happen to be able to beat cash games, be prepared to win less than what you paid in rake! The rake in cash games eat up a ton of you profits. That's not the case with tournaments.

Zoom is just a fast cash game format where when you fold a hand you are dealt a new hand at a new table vs different people (and not even wait preflop until the action is on you). The fact that you can instantly fold makes those games tighter and players make less mistakes preflop. Also, the fact that everyone can play a ton more hands on zoom also makes it so players are more experienced because they've played so many hands already.

About the tournaments - yes, there are some zoom tournaments but not a lot. They are pretty good once you build up a good roll.
The tournaments I suggested as a starting point - 0.25$ and 0.50$ are Multitable sit-and-goes, under the Sit-and-Go tab. The 50 cent ones are turboes and each take about an hour to finish. The 25 cent ones are quite a bit longer... Just check all that is available, read the tournament infos on each of their lobbys and feel free to ask about anything, I am happy to help as I am in fact a jack of all trades

Also, check if you can play on GGPoker! If you can, there is a really good promotion - they give away 25 cent tickets every day, and 1$ tickets on Saturdays, so you can just build up a bankroll from 0 there.

Ok so no rake in SNG, MTT and tournaments? SNG it is then! Does the strategy differ much between those 3 formats?

The "rake" in those formats are called tournament fee, it is usually between 5% and 12% of the buy-in, depending on the game and how fast the format is. Usually the slower formats have bigger tourney fee because there is more edge to be had. If you open any Lobby of those games, you will see for example "$0.88 + $0.12".

I have to mention what is ICM - Independent Chip Model. That is how we call the value of your stack in any tournament game (SNGs and Spins too). Basically, your starting stack of let's say 1500 chips costs just about the same as the buy-in. But... doubling your stack doesn't double the value of your stack. You can think of it like a small part of that value is destributed evenly between the other players that didn't risk anything but are 1 player closer to reaching the money. Usually the strategy at the beginning of tournaments and somewhat in SNGs is around the same as it would be in a cash game, but the closer you get to the money, the more surviving becomes important rather than winning more chips. Close to the money, it is better to go all in in order to make other players fold a lot instead of calling a player that is already all in and for sure be put to risk. I hope that explanation made some sense, you can read a ton more about this, just wanted to mention this because I will be using that ICM term next.

Here are some ROI (return on investment) for those formats that you can aim for (those are pure net winnings after you've calculated the paid fee):

Spin n Go - 2% - 5% ROI. They are really fast, usually end in 10-15 minutes. It is a swingy format because you can hit big multipliers and win big => huge ROI, or you can hit a series of very low multipliers and/or not even win those because the format is hyper-turbo and you start with 25bb => not a ton of edge to be had. The fee in those is 8%. Usually spins are winner-take-all, so there is no ICM in them. You simply have to play to make the most chips per game. To beat the games, you need around 60-70 chips/game. The 25cent and $1 games can be beaten for 90-100 chips/game.
What's good about Spins is that there are so many bad players playing them, that even with such small stacks you can have a big edge on them. The counterpart - what if you happen to play against a rare very good opponent. Well, if you are good too, he can't really have that big of an edge on you, because of the short stack sizes.

Sit and Go - 5% - 8% ROI. The rake is 12% or even more. There is ICM in those. Basically, you have to play tight and risk very little in order hit big and stack bad opponents at the beginning. You shouldn't risk your whole stack if you don't have a huge hand. Later, when the blinds go up and people start dropping out, you will have to start stealing and often going all in. But the all in strategy is really complicated - every ICM spot is so much different than the others. There are softwares that can help you learn and I think you can't really go up the limits without using such tool. To begin with - you can use the free ICM trainer from PokerStrategy. It's quite good to begin with for free. ICM is the most important thing in SNGs. Which brings me to why I don't like them that much - there can be players that know each other and play softly against each other by not trying to knock each other, but focus on you. That is what we call collusion.

Multi-table Sit and Go - 10% - 20% ROI. The rake in those is 10%. They play just like a big tournaments, but of course are way faster to finish. In the 45mans the ICM is around the final table, in the 180, it is around 20-30 players left. Before that you can focus on winning chips, but around the money you have to focus on cashing and stealing chips from others that focus on cashing too.

Big tournaments - 30% - 100% ROI. The rake is 12%. That 12% seems like nothing compared to the ROI doesnt it? ♦
Usually big tournaments have big guarantee price pools, which means the top 3 places get big prices. That attracts the weakest opponents and that's why you can have such big ROIs. Also, sometimes even not so weak player gets tired of playing or simply has to go, so he will punt his stack away or simply just sitout and get blinded out. If you've started beating the multi-table SNGs, you will have no problem beating big tournaments as well.

I think it will be best for you to start with the 25 cent 45mans after work. The 50 cent ones are better considering how fast they are, but you need $50 or maybe even more to play them without a big risk of busting your bankroll.

Go on sharkscope com and check on Leaderboards the best players in every game and buy-in and you can check their graphs etc. You have 5 free searches per day.

Also, I highly recommend listening to this podcast - those are the 2 biggest names in online tournament poker. At least the 15-22 minute part:

Thanks for all the info m8, it helped a lot with my decision 😉.

On poker stars I couldn't find any 27 man or higher of low buy in (minimum 3 euros). So I decided to try knockback turbo tournaments with 10 cents. Despite loosing both with pocket pair of AA and KK (I know is not so rare despite being the best hands you can start with), I was kinda overwhelmed with the speed you need to make decisions.

So afterwards, I went for 9man SNG no Turbo with 0,50 cents. The first one I lost with less than 12 stacks, JJ pocket pair all in, but the second one I placed 2°, even being the player with fewer chips most of the game (lost because I was tired and made the mistake of going all in with JT's. I had more then 20 BB lol).

I'm ready to lose a lot more before I start to win some, so I recovered the money I lost last night which for me is a victory 😛.

Guess I will have to build my bankroll with 9 man SNGs until I can safely go for 3 euros 27man. After that... Tournaments.

Ps: Thanks for the video, I will see it when I get home 😉

Hmmm, maybe there are different tournaments in different pokerstars regions. Fore example, there is no 10 cent games in my pokerstars. Here's what I was talking about:

Also try looking for the "Narrow Your Search Results" function. It should be located to the right of the "Format" dropdown menu.

Once you click on it, this window should pop up:

Sometimes this could have some restrictions set that you may not even be aware of.

Also, nsavov already did a great job explaining those formats and their benefits and drawbacks, but there appears to be some confusion:

Originally posted by BroteusSK
What about NL Hold'em?

Right now I only have one hour of lunch time plus 2 to 3 hours after work to study and play. I'm conflicted because it seems like NL is more flexible with my time, but I learned poker with friends playing pretty much SNG (without raising the blinds until we got tired), so I'm more familiar with it.

No Limit refers to the betting format, where you can bet as much as you want at any point - as opposed to Pot Limit, where you can only bet as much as there is already in the pot, and Fixed Limit, where you can only bet one fixed amount per street.

Pot Limit Hold'em is not very common, and Fixed Limit Hold'em should be pretty much dead by now, so most Hold'em games you'll find will be No Limit, but this applies to both cash games and tournaments. Your post made it sound like you consider No Limit to be another term for cash games.

Originally posted by BroteusSK
Ok so no rake in SNG, MTT and tournaments? SNG it is then! Does the strategy differ much between those 3 formats?

Similarly, "tournament poker" is an umbrella term for all versions of poker where chips are just used as a game token without any direct monetary value like in cash games, and where the prize money is instead paid out based on finishing positions. So both SNGs and MTTs would fall under tournament poker, and SNGs would further be subdivided into single table and multi table SNGs. The difference between SNGs and MTTs is that MTTs have a scheduled time when they are supposed to start, while SNGs simply start whenever the required amount of players has registered.

You'll often hear people use the terms MTTs and tournaments interchangeably, but technically, SNGs are a form of tournament poker too.

Sorry if not all of this was new to you, I just thought there was some confusion to be cleared up.

Originally posted by nsavov
Hmmm, maybe there are different tournaments in different pokerstars regions. Fore example, there is no 10 cent games in my pokerstars. Here's what I was talking about:

Originally posted by Harrier88
Also try looking for the "Narrow Your Search Results" function. It should be located to the right of the "Format" dropdown menu.

Once you click on it, this window should pop up:

Sometimes this could have some restrictions set that you may not even be aware of.

Yeah I I had no MTT's below 3 euros under the tab of SNG. Actually, right now I only have regular 9 man SNG on the list, no MTT's at all. I also checked the filters and nothing ♠ .

In Portugal, the licenced sports betting websites have all limited odds compared to non licenced and limited markets, maybe pokerstars is no different despite being a poker house

But yeah I still have in my tournments tab 0,10 cent turbos with garanteed pool of 10 euros.

Originally posted by Harrier88
Also, nsavov already did a great job explaining those formats and their benefits and drawbacks, but there appears to be some confusion

Ho I thought NL was the same as cash games, where you play with your own money. Now I understand the concept, thanks ;).

I got confused because when I started the Pokerstrategy lessons, in one of them were different hand charts for many situations and I thought they were for cash games, so I associated NL to cash games only hehe

So I was skipping the NL, Omaha, tournments, fixed lessons and only focusing on SNG, basic and psychology lessons. By studying NL, will it help me in SNG's aswell?

Originally posted by BroteusSK
I got confused because when I started the Pokerstrategy lessons, in one of them were different hand charts for many situations and I thought they were for cash games, so I associated NL to cash games only hehe
To be fair, the NL Hold'em cash game lessons here on Pokerstrategy are simply labeled "No Limit", but that is to distinguish them from the Fixed Limit cash game lessons.

Originally posted by BroteusSK
So I was skipping the NL, Omaha, tournments, fixed lessons and only focusing on SNG, basic and psychology lessons. By studying NL, will it help me in SNG's aswell?

To a degree, I suppose. It doesn't hurt to establish a solid foundation for Hold'em in general. The NL lessons contain some material on odds and outs, for example, which would be helpful for all kinds of poker.

If you are sticking around in the SNGs, you need to understand that they are played in a different way than cash games, though. You may have already read the article on Diminishing Chip Value, for example, which explains that a situation where you are expected to gain chips, which would always be profitable in a cash game, is not always necessarily profitable in tournaments/SNGs.

Originally posted by Harrier88

If you are sticking around in the SNGs, you need to understand that they are played in a different way than cash games, though. You may have already read the article on Diminishing Chip Value, for example, which explains that a situation where you are expected to gain chips, which would always be profitable in a cash game, is not always necessarily profitable in tournaments/SNGs.

I haven't read about diminishing chip value yet, I am still trying to memorise all the pre flop hand charts until it becomes natural to me, and then move on to the next lesson. About the odds and outs, I got a lesson in basic poker, had no trouble understanding them, but to calculate the odds, see what position I am in, how many BB I have left (specially in final stages of SNG) and check the hand charts is too much while on a table 😂. Some hands are very obvious to go all in but others, the line is too blur.

I have been reading and moving through basic poker lessons before going all in for SNG. I have only been playing with the help of the charts until now 😛.

Thank you for your advice, I will check the odds and outs under NL category after I clear the basics.

Originally posted by BroteusSK

I haven't read about diminishing chip value yet, I am still trying to memorise all the pre flop hand charts until it becomes natural to me, and then move on to the next lesson. About the odds and outs, I got a lesson in basic poker, had no trouble understanding them, but to calculate the odds, see what position I am in, how many BB I have left (specially in final stages of SNG) and check the hand charts is too much while on a table 😂. Some hands are very obvious to go all in but others, the line is too blur.

I have been reading and moving through basic poker lessons before going all in for SNG. I have only been playing with the help of the charts until now 😛.

Thank you for your advice, I will check the odds and outs under NL category after I clear the basics.

Rather than strictly memorize the charts, memorize them one position at a time.
Then as you play, mark the hands where you're unsure and check them against the charts.

If you have a tracker, that helps, since you can mark the hands in the software as you play, and it further helps by converting the hand histories to a forum-readable form. This is especially useful when posting hands for discussion. which is something that will help you improve
If you have no tracker, then https://pokeit.co/convert/ can convert hands from most poker rooms.

Keep in mind too that those charts are only guidelines to help get you started. They are not perfect by any means and it may sometimes be correct to deviate from them. Nevertheless, they give you a decent foundation, so feel free to use them as you're gaining experience.

The odds and outs article I mentioned was just an example. I recommend reading through the articles from the section called "The Basics" in the NL Hold'em lessons overview, this should be all you need from that area for now, you can dedicate your study to SNGs otherwise.

Originally posted by VorpalF2F
Rather than strictly memorize the charts, memorize them one position at a time.
Then as you play, mark the hands where you're unsure and check them against the charts.

If you have a tracker, that helps, since you can mark the hands in the software as you play, and it further helps by converting the hand histories to a forum-readable form. This is especially useful when posting hands for discussion. which is something that will help you improve
If you have no tracker, then https://pokeit.co/convert/ can convert hands from most poker rooms.

.

Yeah, I activated the pokerstars hand history and I have a website to transform those to place them on the forum. It is not like I have much money but which software do you recommend me to use in order to improve as a beginner?

I have been using the hand charts until now and the only ones I still need to check while playing are the ones for less than 12BB. This past weekend was good, I do not feel so lost using the charts anymore which is a good start. I have been able to place 2nd and 3rd in some games but the heads up is still screwing me over with this strategy, specially because I never started one as a chip leader and the villain call/raises lot.

Originally posted by Harrier88
Keep in mind too that those charts are only guidelines to help get you started. They are not perfect by any means and it may sometimes be correct to deviate from them. Nevertheless, they give you a decent foundation, so feel free to use them as you're gaining experience.

The odds and outs article I mentioned was just an example. I recommend reading through the articles from the section called "The Basics" in the NL Hold'em lessons overview, this should be all you need from that area for now, you can dedicate your study to SNGs otherwise.

Yeah I already got those basics covered :tongue:. I know that is only a strategy (there isn't one that is perfect) but it seems to work with a begginer like me (Haven't placed 1st yet but it will happen....hopefully!). Latter I want to develop my own game style and strategy, but I still have to cover a lot of ground before that happens.

I folded an AA once this week, do not know if it was a good call, but I would have lost if I continued to raise/all with just an overpair after flop. It ended with a villain getting flush if I am not mistaken. I should have saved this hand to post it on the forums but.... it is too late now.

Sometimes instinct pays off I guess...

Originally posted by BroteusSK
Yeah, I activated the pokerstars hand history and I have a website to transform those to place them on the forum. It is not like I have much money but which software do you recommend me to use in order to improve as a beginner?

All three of the major trackers — Hand2Note, Hold'em Manager 3 and PokerTracker 4 have free trials.
I currently use Hand2Note for short-deck hold'em, and PokerTracker 4 for regular hold'em and omaha.
Using the links above, try each one in turn through the trial period, and keep the one you will use most often — be sure to take advantage of the offer for the one your choose.

I found the learning curve for Hand2Note pretty steep, but then I have use PokerTracker 4 for a very long time.

Edit: If you are quite adept with a computer, there is a free alternative: fpdb. You can find out more here:
http://fpdb.wikidot.com/ (maybe). If the links are broken, let me know.
Like I said, fpdb works, but it requires a reasonably large amount of manual configuration. I use it for draw games and badugi.

I'm a little hesitant to recommend the ICM Trainer, especially because I know that it is prohibited to be used while the Pokerstars client is open. Do you think it is still useful?

Originally posted by Harrier88
I'm a little hesitant to recommend the ICM Trainer, especially because I know that it is prohibited to be used while the Pokerstars client is open. Do you think it is still useful?

Good point — it is certainly useful for anyone playing SnGs — you must be careful though to close it down before opening PokerStars (and vice versa).
For the same reason Equilab is strongly recommended for analysing individual hand equities — but it also cannot even be open when PokerStars is open.

Originally posted by VorpalF2F
All three of the major trackers — Hand2Note, Hold'em Manager 3 and PokerTracker 4 have free trials.
I currently use Hand2Note for short-deck hold'em, and PokerTracker 4 for regular hold'em and omaha.
Using the links above, try each one in turn through the trial period, and keep the one you will use most often — be sure to take advantage of the offer for the one your choose.

Right now I do not have the capital to invest in a software but PokerTracker 4 sounds solid to me, I will try the free trial once I get home today.

Originally posted by Harrier88
I'm a little hesitant to recommend the ICM Trainer, especially because I know that it is prohibited to be used while the Pokerstars client is open. Do you think it is still useful?

I started using ICM Trainer yesterday and I was kinda suprised on how I manage to get 80% of the situations (did 45 questions). I won my first SnG aswell after that and I think ICM helped a lot. I will keep doing the trainer until I become a master hehe.

Originally posted by VorpalF2F
For the same reason Equilab is strongly recommended for analysing individual hand equities — but it also cannot even be open when PokerStars is open.

Yeah, I downloaded Equilab aswell and tried the trainer.... It didn't end well! Equity is very important in poker but the math to calculate it is hard and takes too long in an actual game. I know that what is important is to get the feel of it but I think, compared to ICM, is going to take a lot more time to master. Not to mention that giving ranges to villains is already a very hard guess because most of the time I still have to check the -12BB hand chart to see my own hand range