PLO-Challenge

Originally posted by ghaleon
Preflop I would just fold as always ♦ But yeah reasoning is that its really hard to hit strong with this kind of hand. This time we get one of rare flops that offer nutty potential. Tight and passive blinds will help somewhat as we definitely dont want to face squeeze.

I would assume around 20% equity on turn as hearts are not clean outs. Meaning we need around 60€ implieds when hitting.

A reason why I called preflop is, even bad player tend to fold low-rag stuff so with my wheel draw I am not likely to be dominated which means slight equity advantage preflop while maintaining some nuttiness with the A♠:.

I did discount the flush outs. I calc it like this, our 6 outs ott are: A♣:, A♦:, 5♠:, 5♦:, 2♠:, 2♣: so I calc 6 x 2.5 = 15% Equity = ~ 5 : 1 odds.
Here I have a little inaccuracy in my calulation since 15% = 5.5 : 1 but I sacrifice this for the sake of a doable calculation ingame.

I have to call ~ 50 € to see the next card in a pot of 120 € which means pot odds of 170€ : 50€ = ~ 3.5 : 1. There are some further small inaccuracies but they should not tamper the single digit odds-numbers.

Finally I substract the 3.5 from 5 = 5 - 3.5 = 1.5 and multiply it with the calling amount = 50€ x 1,5 = 75€. So I have to get in 75 € bucks on the next street to break-even.

I betted half pot only (100€) so Villain is less likely to fold. I was aware it would make the turn play -EV if villain was folding too much otr so I found it kinda helpful to be not greedy otr and go for the safe route. But I was confident he would call anything that has reasonable SDV and fold his naked flushdraw part. I think my line still could be -EV if villain is bluffing naked flushdraws a lot against 2 opponents but there is maybe card-removal due to BB coming along aswell. Things get really complicated quickly with 3 players involved. I don´t give him credit for straightdraws here though due to his flop lead.

- We have BB left to act. Rare that he will x-shove but some chance. This is not big deal though as it would not be 2xbet size so not reopening betting. But definitely something that decrease our EV if he had more behind. Creating potential situation where we have to fold turn after calling.

Yes I know, I did not mention that BB was a passive player.

In the PLO Vision Training there are 2 SB RFI Ranges, one with limp and one without. I do not wanna construct the mixed SB range since I am going for a raise-only strategy but you do have to complete that. Oh god this range is terrifying. I am quizzing around for days now but I do not get the 20 correct answers straight lol.

Mixed strategy from SB is really hard to master. And I mean REALLY hard, as there is no simple or even simplish logic when to limp and when to raise. And it doesn't affect EV in reality, most likely no-limp as default gives better EV than wondering for most hands what to do.

Your outs most of time in that hand are non heart A, 2, 5 and 6 which would make 9 outs.

I would not worry about SB open limp strategy. It's not something that is recommended outside of high stakes basically. For MTT it might actually be quite a big thing considering no rake factor.

Originally posted by Kyyberi
Mixed strategy from SB is really hard to master. And I mean REALLY hard, as there is no simple or even simplish logic when to limp and when to raise. And it doesn't affect EV in reality, most likely no-limp as default gives better EV than wondering for most hands what to do.

Yes.. Like A♠:T♦:9♥:3♥: is a limp and A♠:T♥:9♥:3♦: is a raise but A♦:T♠:9♥:3♠: is a limp again ... wtf?

Originally posted by ghaleon
Your outs most of time in that hand are non heart A, 2, 5 and 6 which would make 9 outs.

I would not worry about SB open limp strategy. It's not something that is recommended outside of high stakes basically. For MTT it might actually be quite a big thing considering no rake factor.

I forgot the :6x:´ses. Yes 9 Outs.

That makes 22% Equity, I had that right ingame so the turn call was good.

But nothing is in vaine. I got the SB no Limp 20 straight instantly:

♦

CO is a 50/0 loose passive fish and BU is a 12/8 nit. With AA and a SPR lower than 1 we have to stack-off on basically ALL boards (!).

GG Poker - $0.50 PL Hi (6 max) - Omaha Hi - 6 players
Hand converted by Holdem Manager 3

UTG: $75.63 (151.3 bb)
Hero (MP): $60.19 (120.4 bb)
CO: $22.75 (46 bb)
BTN: $51.83 (103.7 bb)
SB: $43.53 (87.1 bb)
BB: $51.53 (103.1 bb)

SB posts $0.25, BB posts $0.50

Pre Flop: (pot: $2.75) Hero has J♠: A♦: A♥: 5♣:
BTN raises to $4.00, 3 folds, Hero raises to $14.75, CO raises to $22.75 and is all-in, BTN calls $18.75, Hero calls $8.00

Flop: ($69.00, 3 players) 6♥: 5♥: 4♦:
Hero bets $37.44 and is all-in, BTN calls $29.08 and is all-in

Turn: ($127.16, 3 players) 2♦:

River: ($127.16, 3 players) 3♣:

Results: $127.16 pot ($0.99 rake)
Final Board: 6♥: 5♥: 4♦: 2♦: 3♣:

Hero shows J♠: A♦: A♥: 5♣:: (Straight, Five High)
Main Pot: [$69.00]: (Pre 33%, Flop 2%, Turn 0%)
Side Pot: [$58.16]: (Pre 52%, Flop 3%, Turn 0%)

CO shows Q♥: T♦: J♥: J♦:: (One Pair, Jacks)
Main Pot: [$69.00]: (Pre 35%, Flop 21%, Turn 28%)

BTN shows 4♥: 3♥: 7♦: 5♦:: (Straight, Seven High)
Main Pot: [$69.00]: (Pre 33%, Flop 76%, Turn 72%)
Side Pot: [$58.16]: (Pre 48%, Flop 97%, Turn 100%)

BTN wins $125.67

This hand is a little test..

iPoker - €0.50 PL Hi (6 max) - Omaha Hi - 6 players
Hand converted by Holdem Manager 3

BB: €68.30 (136.6 bb)
UTG: €54.49 (109 bb)
MP: €61.61 (123.2 bb)
Hero (CO): €51.86 (103.7 bb)
BTN: €50.00 (100 bb)
SB: €54.79 (109.6 bb)

SB posts €0.25, BB posts €0.50

Pre Flop: (pot: €0.75) Hero has Q♥: Q♠: 7♣: 7♠:
2 folds, Hero raises to €1.75, 2 folds, BB raises to €5.50, Hero calls €3.75

Flop: (€11.25, 2 players) 6♣: 9♠: 8♣:
BB bets €3.71, Hero ?

What´s our strategy on the flop in general? Straight flops are lock-down boards but the flush-draw here makes it spicy.

With so many hits we clearly should do sth here. What´s our strategy with (straight-) blockers in general?

Solution:

Not sure about this specific flop but in general straight blockers are not that valuable in low SPR spots. That simply for lack of stack leverage.

Villain probably has some connection to flop when he cbets and then question is if we can assume enough fe. Issue is that he will continue to flop raise often and we then lack that stack depth to put more pressure on blank cards.

Depends of course how SB approach this spot. Small cbet could indicate his strategy is to cbet fairly wide. I would approach this spot as range check in SB shoes as default and solver probably springle low amount of cbets like 10% or even less. So few hands that play great over three street in 3betting range and even those few ones are then needed mostly to protect that check range.

Versus this sizing call might be best option as we have some showdown value and we can turn hand into bluff later streets as well if needed. Probably more effectively by keeping higher SPR. Hands like KK or AA should not be cbetting almost ever. Versus half pot cbet fold is likely best. Could check tomorrow similar flop on trainer.

Checked these spots on trainer. On 976ss flop SB only cbet like 9% and QQ88 with bdfd is split with call and raise. With spade blocker its pretty much 50/50.

On 985ss QQ77 would be just pure fold without fd. Here big difference in SB range is cbet frequency that is bit over 20%

So two clear difference between these flops is stability of straight blockers and amount of hands in SB range that hit strong. On 976 there is no wraps really but on 985 there will be fair amount of QJT, JT9 type combos that are obviously not looking to fold if they cbet.

Noteworthy also that in first flop if villain has hand like KKT7 so overpair, midpair and gs without spade or diamond he is supposed to check and mainly fold to half pot stab from CO.

Also if SB check our QQ+straight blocker pair is going for bet if it doesnt have fd. Big difference here though is possibility to go for three street aggression. So trainer will go for half pot, half pot and half pot shove line on blank runout.

I cannot double-check it since I have no CO vs SB simulation but only BU vs SB where SB would c-bet 24%
and I have also a split approx 50:50 on the 986ss flop.

I also checked the 985ss flop. PLO Vision is calling QQ77 bdfd 100% and not folding either. Maybe it is also because it is for the Button range. Could you double-check that? I slowly get the impression there is something wrong with your software since MonkerSolver is not playing that tight either.

Would be interesting to know how your software plays BU vs SB here.

Anyways.

This are my PLO50 results of this year.

PLO50 Regular Tables:

My winrate on Rush tables is lower at 6 bb/100 over 20k hands. The losses made in the BR-challenge stem from my PLO100 excursions explicitely which all ran pretty terrible. Both bad luck and bad play. Had to maneuvr lots of deep-stacked spots I was not used to and made mistakes I would just never repeat now. I think I improved a lot in the last couple of months.

So I am not going to mix PLO100 into it anymore until I am back to € 9.000,- bankroll. My results in Rush have been pretty good recently so I thought this might be worth a trial more promising to get in more volume and increase my hourly rate instead of mixing in PLO100 stakes to achieve that.

The last 2 months my winrate improved to 15bb/100 over 25k hands with my Allin-adj EV is still at 10bb/100. If my winrate at rush tables really improved up to just 8-10/bb per 100 it would be benefitial to play more fast tables. I could make focus session to train my GTO skills and it is less tiring to have a constant flow of focus on 2 tables for a shorter period of time rather than observing table dynamics on 3-4 tables. I also did not find it best way to make short sessions when playing regular tables and mixing rush with regular tables was kinda bad too. It would kinda stabilize my session and the hourly rate should improve slighly too.

After I have quitted my job in July I burnt quite some money unwilling to move down PLO50 only. That money I earned was destined to enable a PLO100 grind but at least I established a solid skill to beat PLO50 with a decent winrate now.

While September and October were not satisfying and November went really good, I was up € 2.500,- but I lost half of it again on PLO100, this time no bad play involved but primarily bad luck, I had like 1 bad session only so I am happy with my performance (I really checked all hands I played there) but for my BR it was bad. At the end it was a calculated risk. So for next week and december I try to repeat my PLO50 performance and if it works everything should be fine. I am not going to grind PLO25 again and it would be really bad for my studies if I had to take a job again but let´s see. I am coming to an critical point here and give you insight now in my financial planning:

So if I have like 9bb/100 avg on Rush tables I play 3.5 hours per day to grind in € 1800,- per month. This is basically my income estimated on avg $EV. I have like 750€+ living expenses and I am planning to cash out like 1000€ per month (I put some bucks into stocks everymonth for retirement) so I have to do better than that on the tables to pay my bills and add money to my bankroll and survive longterm. I have a quite generous buffer and ofc I want to add as much to my BR as possible so to go broke there has to be a downswing over 2-3 months (100k hands) which would either deplete my saving where I have to tremble for sufficient earnings on a monthly basis or I´d have to reduce my bankroll below 100 buyin, both measures would likely disable a well functioning mental game.

I still have a half year of spendings as cash plus a 130 buyin bankroll for PLO50. My goal will be to build more reserves, a sufficient bankroll for shots and establish a routine with a solid winrate at PLO100 over the next year.

My new Session Management rules are:

No distractive internet brwosing during the sessions.
Daily grind of 4 x 50 session = 200 minutes per day.
Preferably 3 regular tables otherwise 2 Rush-tables.

4bet-pot training:

WTF?!

If this was preflop EP open, BU 3bet, EP 4bet then trips are actually kinda low in EP range. EP is probably supposed to cbet super small with whole range as huge majority of time he will have AA even in solver world.

That is somewhat surprising, but it isn't top set, almost no redraws, and those would not be to the nuts. Well there is a backdoor nut straight, but with a paired board. There is also the problem of not exactly having top kicker here.

Happy new year to you Poker folks. New year new Luck! It is time for me to set new goals and in order to do this I have to reflect what happened in the past, so here I make a Goal status update from the BR-challenge:

Originally posted by Mascherano95
I think I am gonna modify my goals. Yesterday I did not manage to finish the UTG range I planned. I just made the half over this week and I don´t think I can complete to RFI AND calling ranges within that given time-frame. I am also not good with the volum since I played the 1000 hands over some days and wow it was too much for me. I am always quite worried about the quality of my game in the last session. I am really wondering how those guys get 30-40k hands per month. That´s just sick. Wtf. So my new goals are:

to play a volume of 80k hands by 24. December 2022. ✓

Sub-goals are to beat PLO20 with 12.5 bb/100 X and PLO50 with 10 bb/100 X over that total sample.

Consequently,

I am able to 1. recap my RFI ranges of my completed gameplan sheets and I have studied the 2. Mastermind 10-week Transformation by Jnandez and also watched the RIO PLO from ground up videos of flop play by Empty by 31. December 2022.

September

Week 13: x/5000 UTG paired MM10WT Week 1 ✓
Week 14: x/5000 UTG unpaired MM10WT Week 2 ✓
Week 15: x/5000 UTG unpaired MM10WT Week 3 ✓
Week 16: x/5000 MP paired MM10WT Week 4 ✓

October

Week 17: x/5000 MP unpaired MM10WT Week 5 ✓
Week18: x/5000 MP unpaired MM10WT Week 6 ✓
Week 19: x/5000 CO paired MM10WT Week 7 ✓
Week 20: x/5000 CO unpaired MM10WT Week 8 ✓

November

Week 21: x/5000 CO unpaired MM10WT Week 9 ✓
Week 22: x/5000 BU paired MM10WT Week 10 ✓
Week 23: x/5000 BU unpaired RIOPFGU VIdeo 1-7 ✓
Week 24: x/5000 BU unpaired RIOPFGU Video 8-14 ✓

December

Week 25: x/5000 SB paired RIOPFGU Video 15-18 X
Week 26: x/5000 SB unpaired Buffer ✓
Week 27: x/5000 SB unpaired Buffer ✓
Week 28: x/5000 buffer Buffer ✓

I finished the 10-week transformation program and also watched some of the RIO vids but did not make it to the flop play yet. My preflop raise-first in range are complete (I am not perfect yet with the 45% BU range though) and I also do well at PLO-Vision trainer. I also completed the MP ranges facing RFI from UTG (3bet and cold-call).

From week 13 to week 28 I played

61.718 hands at PLO25 with a winrate of 4.37 bb/100 from which 10.409 hands are played with a winrate of 15.45 bb/100 are played regular tables and 19.968 hands are played at Rush tables with a winrate of -1.41 bb/100.

122.368 hands at PLO 50 with a winrate of 1.77 bb/100 from which 66.041 hands with a winrate of 10.21 bb/100 are played at regular tables and 56.327 hands are played at Rush tables with a winrate of -8.13 bb/100.

So with 180k+ hands I outperformed my volume goals but also clearly missed my overall winrate goals. I was wrong about beating Rush tables since I struggled heavily this month again. On one hand I think it kinda improve my skill tremendously within a short time frame to face that way tougher and more tight/solid competition but on the other hand I lost a ton of time and money fighting those regs and my Bankroll is so crippled now compared to the start of the challenge.

I take away from it, it is better to acquire a more advanced gameplan before heading back to PLO50 rush tables, my unwillingness to face the fact I am a losing player there yet cost me a lot of time, nerves and money, since I still faced a lot of troubles in river situations, 3-bet pots and also turn play was very problematic. There are tons of combos in tons of situations and I´d need to figure out, what vague strategy solver plays from preflop to flop and how to implement that into my own game. Ofc lots of regs are really bad like all those nut-peddlers, but it took me too long to figure out, how ridiculously tight those rake-slaves play. We can´t study all the turn river scenarios since that would kinda go beyond the scope of a applicable gamplean yet but I also plan to have some templates for common turn-scenarios.

So for the year 2023 I will shift my goal setting to hours played instead of hands volume. Quality clearly beats quantity at least as far as I am concerned. So now I try to perform a reasonable amount of quality time every day, I think 4 hours are manageable. That makes 1440 per year, since there 20% buffer are recommended I will play 1440-290= 1150 hours this year on PLO25 Rush tables and PLO25 and PLO50 Regular tables. My aim is to make at least 5 bb/100 at the Rush tables and at least 12.5bb/100 at the Regular tables. My study goals includes finishing all standard ranges preflop including cold-calls, 3bets, 4bets etc.. and absolve all preflop 6 solver categories with gold (20 correct streak) which allows my to tick-off preflop play and but all my efforts into postflop game. I also want to finish the RunItOnce Video series by Galfon "This is PLO" and Emty "PLO from ground up". After "The Poker Mindset" I am going to read "Mastering Small Stakes PLO" by Jnandez, "Small Stakes PLO" by PUM and "Advanced PLO" by Nguyen a second time and summarize its content.

Okay let´s do this!

Originally posted by ghaleon
If this was preflop EP open, BU 3bet, EP 4bet then trips are actually kinda low in EP range. EP is probably supposed to cbet super small with whole range as huge majority of time he will have AA even in solver world.

Yes but check-fold trips? Remember BU is supposed to have no AAxx in his flatting range since he would 5-bet those?

Originally posted by Mascherano95

Originally posted by ghaleon
If this was preflop EP open, BU 3bet, EP 4bet then trips are actually kinda low in EP range. EP is probably supposed to cbet super small with whole range as huge majority of time he will have AA even in solver world.

Yes but check-fold trips? Remember BU is supposed to have no AAxx in his flatting range since he would 5-bet those?

But how high or low are trips in EP range? That is the crucial question. This is how this spot looks in solver world.

EP range:

BU range:

So EP has boat almost 80% of time. Even versus 1/5 pot cbet BU is supposed to fold all trips but some rare Ax would continue. Make sense as main point in BU call range is really to block AA. Also BU is supposed to have 10% of time AA in his call range. Probably bit less in plo50 rake level.

But yeah in reality EP will likely have AA even more often than 75% and BU will pretty much never slowplay AA.

PS: So if EP does check BU should probably not bet at all basically.

Originally posted by ghaleon

Originally posted by Mascherano95

Originally posted by ghaleon
If this was preflop EP open, BU 3bet, EP 4bet then trips are actually kinda low in EP range. EP is probably supposed to cbet super small with whole range as huge majority of time he will have AA even in solver world.

Yes but check-fold trips? Remember BU is supposed to have no AAxx in his flatting range since he would 5-bet those?

But how high or low are trips in EP range? That is the crucial question. This is how this spot looks in solver world.

EP range:

BU range:

So EP has boat almost 80% of time. Even versus 1/5 pot cbet BU is supposed to fold all trips but some rare Ax would continue. Make sense as main point in BU call range is really to block AA. Also BU is supposed to have 10% of time AA in his call range. Probably bit less in plo50 rake level.

But yeah in reality EP will likely have AA even more often than 75% and BU will pretty much never slowplay AA.

PS: So if EP does check BU should probably not bet at all basically.

When facing a bet and is supposed to defend about 30% by calling and 15% ... but it seems indeed we are checking so much of our AAxx slowplaying of huge portion of our flop AA. We have an Jack over 55% of the time and we are supposed to fold 90% since BU´s range is so small (below 1%) and indeed can have AAxx. So yes sick fold since Trips is so weak against a bet already because BU should check-back 99% but please tell me that was an obvious no-brainer to you. Not a realistic play you make ingame sicne we´d simplify check-back towards 100%.

Here I have another one:

Bet-folding nutstraight+double redraw at SPR 0,83 ?!